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Bin Laden Found Dead?

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  1. #371

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    If the first paragraph refers to WWII and the overthrow of Hitler I think you will find Russia, Britain and its Commonwealth, plus the resistance fighters of the occupied countries played just a little part. We did hold out for a couple of years you know until Japan bombed the USA into the war. It might have taken longer but the Nazi regime would have collapsed anyway.
    I don't have a dog in this hunt, but that conclusion is far from clear. Considering that the US supplied the majority of the weaponry and oil used by the allied side (including the Russians) in WWII, it is at best uncertain what would have happened had the US stuck to a neutrality policy. In addition, the USSR was under Stalin who was more than happy to make a deal with Hitler (as he had in 1939).

    Japan attacked the US because of the pressure the US put on them - oil embargo, again - to get out of China. If the US had been isolationist, none of that would have happened.

    I wouldn't even bother to respond to HKIT or Skyhook on an issue like this since their ignorance is so fundamental...but since you jumped in I thought I'd make that point.

    None of that is to say, of course, that the inspiring example of the Brits holding off Hitler alone didn't have an impact on changing those policies in the US, in the first place. All of which is to say that there is nothing certain in human affairs, and nothing inevitable about history.
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  2. #372

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryant.english:
    But your scenario doesn't have anything in common with this situation and who needs to refer to you for moral lessons anyway? Who are you supposed to be? Dumb..
    Act and argue like a man who is not afraid to admit his mistakes (or lack of morality) please, perhaps you'd at least get some respect. And the name calling? Please... act like a man (if you are one).
    Last edited by paenme; 07-05-2011 at 01:42 PM.

  3. #373

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    I don't have a dog in this hunt, but that conclusion is far from clear. Considering that the US supplied the majority of the weaponry and oil used by the allied side (including the Russians) in WWII, it is at best uncertain what would have happened had the US stuck to a neutrality policy. In addition, the USSR was under Stalin who was more than happy to make a deal with Hitler (as he had in 1939).

    Japan attacked the US because of the pressure the US put on them - oil embargo, again - to get out of China. If the US had been isolationist, none of that would have happened.

    I wouldn't even bother to respond to HKIT or Skyhook on an issue like this since their ignorance is so fundamental...but since you jumped in I thought I'd make that point.

    None of that is to say, of course, that the inspiring example of the Brits holding off Hitler alone didn't have an impact on changing those policies in the US, in the first place. All of which is to say that there is nothing certain in human affairs, and nothing inevitable about history.
    Yes some fair comments, though on the last point the only thing to learn from history is that no empire lasts for ever. My comment was not aimed at being anti-American, just I get a little pissed off with the "US saved the world" version of WWII portrayed in the movies sometimes without acknowledging the sacrifice of so many millions of other brave souls.
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  4. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    Yes some fair comments, though on the last point the only thing to learn from history is that no empire lasts for ever. My comment was not aimed at being anti-American, just I get a little pissed off with the "US saved the world" version of WWII portrayed in the movies sometimes without acknowledging the sacrifice of so many millions of other brave souls.
    I didn't think your comment was anti-American. I agree that world history should be taught in a more nuanced fashion (but relatively people these days know much history of any kind - you try giving actual facts to an HKIT or a Skyhook and you end up in an endless loop argument). Paenme's comment to Skyhook was fine, as far as it goes - Australia would no longer exist if it weren't for the US, and the Aussie PM essentially begged the US to save Oz. That doesn't mean Americans expect anyone to be grateful today, anymore than you can expect the French to be grateful to you Brits for fighting on while France collaborated...anyway, there is no doubt that when the chips were down, the Brits stood up when it counted, and the world needs to remember that.

    For that, one has to cut the Brits some slack. I even forgive you guys for foisting Princess Diana on the world.

  5. #375

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    Fortunately, most posters here seem to understand that the concept of 'collective gratitude' of this or that nationality for something some other nation did in history should be taken with a grain of salt. I wish that most people would refrain from taking expressions such as 'we saved your asses' in such and such war, or 'you guys' did this or that to 'us' too seriously. How far back in history is one allowed to go with the concept of collective national responsibility? Should Americans still be 'grateful' to the French for helping us win our independence? How long is China allowed to hold a grudge against Japan for wartime atrocities or against Great Britain for the Opium War? Should Muslims and Jews still despise Catholics for the Crusades and for kicking them out of Spain, etcetera?


  6. #376

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    Quote Originally Posted by dansande:
    Fortunately, most posters here seem to understand that the concept of 'collective gratitude' of this or that nationality for something some other nation did in history should be taken with a grain of salt. I wish that most people would refrain from taking expressions such as 'we saved your asses' in such and such war, or 'you guys' did this or that to 'us' too seriously. How far back in history is one allowed to go with the concept of collective national responsibility? Should Americans still be 'grateful' to the French for helping us win our independence? How long is China allowed to hold a grudge against Japan for wartime atrocities or against Great Britain for the Opium War? Should Muslims and Jews still despise Catholics for the Crusades and for kicking them out of Spain, etcetera?
    I'm not sure who you are addressing but I don't think anybody was asking for gratitude. I think Hullexile and I were discussing an historical point. Panmae's earlier post was in response to, I think, Skyhook, who had basically gone on record as wishing that the US had never existed. Certainly a statement that ridiculous merits either a withering reponse or simply being ignored.

    You are obviously correct that too much focus on ancient history is the cause of a lot of the problems in the world today - your examples are all good ones. The continued bitterness of the Chinese toward the Japanese and the Europeans for past wrongs, real and imagined (which is frequently fanned by the government) is a significant regional problem.

  7. #377

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    Quote Originally Posted by dansande:
    Fortunately, most posters here seem to understand that the concept of 'collective gratitude' of this or that nationality for something some other nation did in history should be taken with a grain of salt. I wish that most people would refrain from taking expressions such as 'we saved your asses' in such and such war, or 'you guys' did this or that to 'us' too seriously. How far back in history is one allowed to go with the concept of collective national responsibility? Should Americans still be 'grateful' to the French for helping us win our independence? How long is China allowed to hold a grudge against Japan for wartime atrocities or against Great Britain for the Opium War? Should Muslims and Jews still despise Catholics for the Crusades and for kicking them out of Spain, etcetera?
    You missed the underlying points in my questions to Skyhook:
    1. He was complaining about US' current foreign policy, but US foreign policy has been somewhat consistent since WWII. He seems to like that policy when it suits him (WWII, Kosovo) but despise it when it does not benefit him or when it enhances US power.
    2. He does not believe any country should be so powerful, yet forgets that the world may be an even more dangerous place without a powerful US today. Would like to understand how he (or anyone who feel differently) thinks the world would be like if the US does not exist? Would Saddam, Kim Jung Il and the like be more ruthless and aggressive? IMO highly likely.

    Re your points - I think people can forgive, but history should not be forgotten. For history repeats itself and provides great lessons/insight to the new generations on how to behave and how to better prevent future aggressions.
    Last edited by paenme; 07-05-2011 at 07:38 PM.
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  8. #378

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    The continued bitterness of the Chinese toward the Japanese and the Europeans for past wrongs, real and imagined (which is frequently fanned by the government) is a significant regional problem.
    I don't know too many Chinese are still bitter about the Europeans for past wrongs (after all what they did was no comparison to Japanese' brutal act in WWII). There is certainly resentment towards the Japanese which is particularly unhelped by the current Japan generation's denial of what happened during WWII, as well as US' intervening in the post-war affairs (e.g. not punishing the war criminals) that left many Chinese feel that justice was never served.
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  9. #379

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    I didn't think your comment was anti-American. I agree that world history should be taught in a more nuanced fashion (but relatively people these days know much history of any kind - you try giving actual facts to an HKIT or a Skyhook and you end up in an endless loop argument). Paenme's comment to Skyhook was fine, as far as it goes - Australia would no longer exist if it weren't for the US, and the Aussie PM essentially begged the US to save Oz. That doesn't mean Americans expect anyone to be grateful today, anymore than you can expect the French to be grateful to you Brits for fighting on while France collaborated...anyway, there is no doubt that when the chips were down, the Brits stood up when it counted, and the world needs to remember that.

    For that, one has to cut the Brits some slack. I even forgive you guys for foisting Princess Diana on the world.
    From out of the silouette of an Australia coast decimated by monsters from outer space.
    Is it a bird?
    Is it a plane?
    No it's USAMAN!!
    He will come to save your sorry asses.
    He will invade lands, nick oil and assasinate people
    He will start wars and kill millions in the process
    He will prop up unsavoury dictators all over the world
    He will be gun running throughout the world
    He will impose dictatorship in third world countries and call it democracy
    He will invent and use a nuclear bomb
    He will ignore International laws and treaties
    He will lie, torture and bully
    In years to come, he will send his Propoganda chief, Freetrader to remind us all of our gratitude and to spout drivel on some obscure talkboard.

  10. #380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Of course - I don't think we have to resort to that here, because as far as I am aware, Bin Laden's killing was competely legal...but assuming it weren't, it would be another interesting discussion.
    FT, You are not aware of anything, even how to pass properly.

    If it was legal why the hell did they leg it out so quickly?... strewth! Talk about being mentally challenged you really take the biscuit...
    Why can't you for once be like the others.... they admit it's all illegal, they are proud of what happened and that's fine...at least they are honest about it.... but you must be the only person on this planet who is convinced it is legal... Are you from Planet Zorg or simply waiting for instructions from the White house to think otherwise.
    And where the hell did you get your history from, Noddy in Wonderland?

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