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  1. #391

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBrit:
    You do have to admit that McArthur completely bottled it with Hirohito and made a farce of the whole proceedings by excluding him from the War Crimes tribunals. There is a lot of lingering resentment towards Japan that would have been partially mitigated if he wasn't allowed to continue as titular head of state after authorising some absolute atrocities during WW2. America bottled the decision not to prosecute him without a shadow of a doubt.
    Difficult to say. I've read a recent biography of Hirohito (or, as we are supposed to refer to him today, Showa) by a pretty-left wing guy. Obviously he had fairly good intentions but ending up becoming a tool of the war mongers. I am not aware of Hirohito 'authorising' specific atrocities; however, he did sign on at titular leader for the aggression in China, and he definitely had a few war criminals in his family. That said he saw himself as a constitutional monach who had no policy-making role. On the other hand, his decsion to pursh for surrender in 1945 and going against the militarists proved cruicial - saving thousands of lives, at least, and allowing for Japan to become the nice place it is today. Of course, at the War Crimes Tribunal Tojo was made to retract a few statements that seemed to implicate the Emperor - but I don't have any problem seeing Tojo as a much worse guy. Most people, including me, think MacArthur's decision not to prosecure a harmless guy whose main interest in life was collecting sea-shells to be the correct one. The resentment prosecuting Hirohito would have caused would have been significant. Perfect justice doesn't exist. There were a lot of other war criminals who got off easy who deserved worse than Hirohito - of course, Japan had so many.

  2. #392

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Oh look FT...the 2nd braincell has arrived!
    Here comes the calvary!!!
    ***********************************

    I wouldn't have even given dreadnought that much of respect to respond.
    Last edited by Renotommy; 08-05-2011 at 02:35 AM.

  3. #393

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    If you honestly believe what you have said here it is a pretty damning assessment of your comphrension abilities. As you are unable to condemn one of the most obviously wrong and abjectly cowardly post WW2 decisions it really does call into question either your cognitive abilities or your judgement.

    The consitutional monarch role is simply bunk, he was a full member of the war cabinets and was involved in the planning.

    Francis Pike sums it up well in one paragraph which I will reproduce here

    The end result was a remarkable escape for the Japanese Emperor from punishment for the heinous crimes for which he was responsible. As the historian John Dower has concluded in his epic account of post-war Japan, Embracing Defeat (1999), America, by choosing to ignore Hirohito's guilt and by participating in the cover-up of this fact, 'came close to turning the whole issue of "war responsibility" into a joke.' The outcome was hardly a matter for laughter. The fact that Hirohito, a cruel monster who matched Hitler for overwhelming ambition, for terrotorial conquest and for personal aggrandisement, and who was responsible for genocide in China, and the incidental deaths
    of millions of civilians during his Asian wars, should live out his life as the constitutional monarch and head of state of Japan was surely the greatest miscarriage of justice of the Second World War
    This is a guy you think was a harmless old seashell collector? Since you claim to have read up on the subject I can't work out why you seen to be adopting an absolutey indefensible position rather than criticise the American decisions taken...



    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Difficult to say. I've read a recent biography of Hirohito (or, as we are supposed to refer to him today, Showa) by a pretty-left wing guy. Obviously he had fairly good intentions but ending up becoming a tool of the war mongers. I am not aware of Hirohito 'authorising' specific atrocities; however, he did sign on at titular leader for the aggression in China, and he definitely had a few war criminals in his family. That said he saw himself as a constitutional monach who had no policy-making role. On the other hand, his decsion to pursh for surrender in 1945 and going against the militarists proved cruicial - saving thousands of lives, at least, and allowing for Japan to become the nice place it is today. Of course, at the War Crimes Tribunal Tojo was made to retract a few statements that seemed to implicate the Emperor - but I don't have any problem seeing Tojo as a much worse guy. Most people, including me, think MacArthur's decision not to prosecure a harmless guy whose main interest in life was collecting sea-shells to be the correct one. The resentment prosecuting Hirohito would have caused would have been significant. Perfect justice doesn't exist. There were a lot of other war criminals who got off easy who deserved worse than Hirohito - of course, Japan had so many.
    paenme likes this.

  4. #394

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Difficult to say. I've read a recent biography of Hirohito (or, as we are supposed to refer to him today, Showa) by a pretty-left wing guy. Obviously he had fairly good intentions but ending up becoming a tool of the war mongers. I am not aware of Hirohito 'authorising' specific atrocities; however, he did sign on at titular leader for the aggression in China, and he definitely had a few war criminals in his family. That said he saw himself as a constitutional monach who had no policy-making role. On the other hand, his decsion to pursh for surrender in 1945 and going against the militarists proved cruicial - saving thousands of lives, at least, and allowing for Japan to become the nice place it is today. Of course, at the War Crimes Tribunal Tojo was made to retract a few statements that seemed to implicate the Emperor - but I don't have any problem seeing Tojo as a much worse guy. Most people, including me, think MacArthur's decision not to prosecure a harmless guy whose main interest in life was collecting sea-shells to be the correct one. The resentment prosecuting Hirohito would have caused would have been significant. Perfect justice doesn't exist. There were a lot of other war criminals who got off easy who deserved worse than Hirohito - of course, Japan had so many.
    By GOD! You make Terry F**kwit look like Eistein!

    So by your "analysis" Hirohito was on a mission to build up his collection of exoskeleton-bearing aquatic invertebrates? Shall we regard Unit 731 simply as the 1940s version of Top Chef or building the Burma Railway as an over enthusiatic Survivor reality show, where people had to build the longest train set ever whilst mulnourished and tortured? Only difference with the 2010 version is that people get knocked off the show by the hundreds.

    Did you not know that the Emperor was a "God" with divine powers and that before each military conflict, they pledge to give their lives to the Emperor?
    What do you think "Banzai" means? "Seafood Dinner tonight chaps"?
    BTW, if you read International newspapers (and not the toilet roll) you'll find there is a debate on the legality of the raid on OBL and virually everyone is questioning that this is indeed illegal under the terms of Geneva convetions and even military laws...

    But if you want to continue playing the idiot do it with your chums such as "Single cell Dreadnought"... you'll be happy together.
    Last edited by HKITperson; 08-05-2011 at 12:38 PM.

  5. #395

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Difficult to say. I've read a recent biography of Hirohito (or, as we are supposed to refer to him today, Showa) by a pretty-left wing guy. Obviously he had fairly good intentions but ending up becoming a tool of the war mongers. I am not aware of Hirohito 'authorising' specific atrocities; however, he did sign on at titular leader for the aggression in China, and he definitely had a few war criminals in his family. That said he saw himself as a constitutional monach who had no policy-making role. On the other hand, his decsion to pursh for surrender in 1945 and going against the militarists proved cruicial - saving thousands of lives, at least, and allowing for Japan to become the nice place it is today. Of course, at the War Crimes Tribunal Tojo was made to retract a few statements that seemed to implicate the Emperor - but I don't have any problem seeing Tojo as a much worse guy. Most people, including me, think MacArthur's decision not to prosecure a harmless guy whose main interest in life was collecting sea-shells to be the correct one. The resentment prosecuting Hirohito would have caused would have been significant. Perfect justice doesn't exist. There were a lot of other war criminals who got off easy who deserved worse than Hirohito - of course, Japan had so many.
    By GOD! You make Terry F**kwit look like Eistein!

    So by your "analysis" Hirohito was on a mission to build up his collection of exoskeleton-bearing aquatic invertebrates? Shall we regard Unit 731 simply as the 1940s version of Top Chef or building the Burma Railway as an over enthusiatic Survivor reality show, where people had to build the longest train set ever whilst mulnourished and tortured. Only difference with the 2010 version is that people get knocked off the show by the hundreds?

    BTW, if you read International newspapers (and not the toilet roll) you'll find there is a debate on the legality of the raid on OBL and virually everyone is questioning that this is indeed illegal under the terms of Geneva convetions and even military laws...

    But if you want to continue playing the idiot do it with your chums such as "Single cell Dreadnought"... you'll be happy together.

  6. #396

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBrit:
    If you honestly believe what you have said here it is a pretty damning assessment of your comphrension abilities. As you are unable to condemn one of the most obviously wrong and abjectly cowardly post WW2 decisions it really does call into question either your cognitive abilities or your judgement.

    The consitutional monarch role is simply bunk, he was a full member of the war cabinets and was involved in the planning.

    Francis Pike sums it up well in one paragraph which I will reproduce here

    This is a guy you think was a harmless old seashell collector? Since you claim to have read up on the subject I can't work out why you seen to be adopting an absolutey indefensible position rather than criticise the American decisions taken...
    Calm down. No need to go nuclear or ad hominem - I did say it was pretty difficult and controversial. You are certainly correct that the Emperor was involved in the decision making process; on the other hand, I do think he was in a rather difficult situation.

    The occupation had to balance 'justice/retribrution' with rebuilding Japan. In any case, Japan had accepted the Potsdam Declaration with the caveat that "the perogatives of the Emperor will not be infringed" which the US had accepted. One never knows what the Japanese would have thought about indicting the Emperor and whether that would have been considered a betrayal of that agreement.

    However, I admit you may be right, but I think I'd rather read up on the subject myself.

  7. #397

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    Brit, I mean this in the most collegial, "let's have a discussion" manner possible, I honestly don't think that that quote you give provides anything other than a breathless summary of one writer's conclusion on the issue. Japan did launch aggressive war, but its atrocities were not anywhere near as systematic and planned as the Nazi's. The Japanese atrocities were mostly at the operational level. It is clear that the Emperor escaped any degree of accountability for his share in the responsibility, on the other hand, by "Embracing Defeat" and appearing in the famous photograph with MacArthur, he allowed the Japanese to accept the occupation on move on. I honestly don't know what should have been done with Hirohito personally

    For what it's worth, I had at least one family member who suffered terribly under the Japanese and witnessed their cruelties and stupidies first hand - I do believe that there needs to be an accounting. Whether hanging the Emperor would have accomplished anything other than upsetting the Japense, I really don't know.


  8. #398

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    There is plenty of evidence to show exactly what happened. You have provided precisely nothing apart from your usual overblown rhetoric to support your completely indefensible position. I won't waste my time transcribing any of the plethora of information available unless you do actually show a desire to be educated rather than dismiss anything that contradicts your very narrow world view.


  9. #399

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBrit:
    There is plenty of evidence to show exactly what happened. You have provided precisely nothing apart from your usual overblown rhetoric to support your completely indefensible position. I won't waste my time transcribing any of the plethora of information available unless you do actually show a desire to be educated rather than dismiss anything that contradicts your very narrow world view.
    Nice to have you back, Brit.

    Honestly, I fail to see how my admitting that an issue is difficult and that you may very well be correct reflects on my supposedly "very narrow world view."

  10. #400

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    Yes, you would to fail to see it. You are also failing to cone up with a shred of evidence to support your banal assertions that Hirohito was largely blameless.


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