Soldier beheaded in Woolwich, UK. Sickening.

[justjoe86]

You know where the fence is in this debate?

Well I do agree with you that a lot of bad things are rooted in religion BUT I do not go as far as saying people shouldn't be religious. You can be religious without being an idiot and since many of my friends are religious in one way or another (including muslim) it would be rich of me to come on here and slate them, especially when I know they're good people and that, in their cases, religion won't make them bad people.

So that's what I meant by sitting on the fence.

I don't have one.



I haven't made a proposal.



I don't have any, so....errm...none.
This is a conversation, not a committee.

You don't need to get defensive... I was just hoping I could turn the debate into something a bit more constructive. Claire did a good job and I agree with what she said.

[methosb]

Well I do agree with you that a lot of bad things are rooted in religion BUT I do not go as far as saying people shouldn't be religious. You can be religious without being an idiot

You can be spiritual without being an idiot but you have to be somewhat of an idiot to be religious, that is to say believing religious texts as truth.

Believing that the historical contents of them are literally true and accurate (like believing Noahs arc actually happened as written rather than maybe some farmer built a boat and put some of his animals on it during a flood or that there is some kind of metaphorical method) or believing that your particular text is the right one while all other religions got it wrong is idiotic.

If you met a religious person that told you that the Earth is only 6000 years old and humans walked along side dinosaurs then you would believe that they are either crazy or an idiot. But their statements were completely legitimate ad far as their religion and religiousness are concerned. If you met a person that was spiritual and told you that they believe that there is a higher power and that the religious texts do tell some interesting stories that sometimes teach you useful life lessons then you would think that this person is more intelligent than the first and has a more rational mind.

[INXS]

Are you proposing that we all moan about Islam on internet forums and hope it will magically go away? Start a war? Put people in prison for being Muslim? Propaganda?

You don't need to get defensive... I was just hoping I could turn the debate into something a bit more constructive.

Almost like two different people JJ.

[Claire ex-ax]

If you met a religious person that told you that the Earth is only 6000 years old and humans walked along side dinosaurs then you would believe that they are either crazy or an idiot. But their statements were completely legitimate ad far as their religion and religiousness are concerned. If you met a person that was spiritual and told you that they believe that there is a higher power and that the religious texts do tell some interesting stories that sometimes teach you useful life lessons then you would think that this person is more intelligent than the first and has a more rational mind.

No, no I wouldn't.

[justjoe86]

Almost like two different people JJ.

Why? I was asking what you were proposing. They were some potential things to be proposed.

(Obviously the 'moaning on an internet forum' bit was not quite a serious suggestion but the others seemed to match with your beliefs quite well)

[INXS]

Well I do agree with you that a lot of bad things are rooted in religion BUT I do not go as far as saying people shouldn't be religious. You can be religious without being an idiot and since many of my friends are religious in one way or another (including muslim) it would be rich of me to come on here and slate them, especially when I know they're good people and that, in their cases, religion won't make them bad people.

Actually, I used to hold similar views to you.

The reason I used to argue against the atheists on this forum is that I've always considered my self to be a Christian in as much as being part of the Christian/Protestant culture. I do admit that I probably haven't believed in God since I was maybe 10. I also admit that my reasons for arguing with people like Rev. Jay and PDLM on here were pretty crap too. Basically, I'd never bothered, needed or wanted to look deeper into humanist/atheist thinking and so for me is was like, my Grandmother is a Christian, are you calling my Grandmother an idiot? Shitty, childish reason to argue really.

Unfortunately, the more you research, and it can be quite addictive and many great minds have put their intellects to writing about atheism, the more difficult it is to even be in the same space as someone who is religious. I actually find it unnerving and odd now when I'm at one school where they pray every morning....it feels completely weird and uncomfortable. It's making me feel even more horrible because I feel like I should be stopping them from feeding the garbage to the kids. As usual they teach them all the most ridiculous stories, Noah's Ark, Garden of Eden, Parting of the Red Sea....it's horrible....but you know what? They are all nice people, seriously, nice, nice, happy clappy nice.

I think I would find it difficult now to be friends with someone who was religious and lately I have brought it up early when I've met people.

[justjoe86]

The only time I'd feel uncomfortable having a religious friend is if they constantly talked about their faith or worse if they tried to convert me or my daughter. Of the friends I have who are religious, none are like this. What they choose to believe is none of my business.

[INXS]

The only time I'd feel uncomfortable having a religious friend is if they constantly talked about their faith or worse if they tried to convert me or my daughter. Of the friends I have who are religious, none are like this. What they choose to believe is none of my business.

In what way are they religious?

[Trebor]

In what way are they religious?

Perhaps they go to church.

[methosb]

No, no I wouldn't.

There is no way that you really think that someone who believes in a literal interpretation of a religious text, assuming a normal modern education, is as smart as someone who thinks religious texts are metaphorical. If you do, you are bullshitting and trying to be PC.