Actually I think "if" is the wrong word...
Plenty of these examples in the British press pretty much any day of the week. I don't know how representative they are - the press is not exactly beholden to anyone to be fair - but it still exists. When I googled Sharia law courts in the UK (I put one link up) I found a few shocking stories of what was happening in them - the general theme of which appeared to be "anti woman". e.g. men being given easy divorce but women being told to "go back to your husband and try harder". I was surprised this was being allowed, in this day and age, in the UK. Surprised and shocked. It's no wonder that folks get anti-Islam when you read this stuff. I agree, most religious people (of any faith) are perfectly fine. But not all. And I still think it's more cultural than religious, to be honest, but religion is the rallying cry from both sides.
Moving - I agree that women feeling forced to wear a burkha is completely unacceptable. But what about the women who wear head scarfs? Is that unacceptable too? After all, that is far more common than a full burkha. Plenty of muslim women go to university and plenty get jobs (there have little choice in this economy). And forced marriages is common in the indian community too.
I'm not condoning islam - it is majorly flawed, and I know you confessed it was a generalisation, but I think these kind of generalisations don't help. If people referred to being opposed to 'muslim extremists' rather than just 'muslims' in general, it would change the tone of the conversation dramatically, and almost everyone would be in agreement.
Reminds me of this story:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21953899
I think women being FORCED to do anything is wrong. Headscarves or burkhas - if they want to wear them, fine, if they don't, NOT FINE.
I completely agree re the general vs the fundamentalists - on the whole I have no problem with majority of any religion which operates in "normal, civilised" manner. But any religion which oppresses part of its congregation, or who tries to force it's views onto others (the creationism debate in the USA, for example or the "no cartoons of Mohamed" brigade) is wrong or which mutilates it's children (men or women, for supposed religious or other daft reasons).
I completely agree - no one should be forced to do anything. But what I'm trying to say is that different muslims interpret the koran in different ways - in the same way that different christians interpret the bible in different ways. As a result, there are different versions of islam - with the violently sexist fundamentalists at one extreme, and perfectly normal, civilised people at the other.
It's not about what they wear, it's about if they are being forced to wear and the consequences when they don't.
And rest assured, a woman forced to wear a burka or head scarf will also have a lot of other restrictions imposed on her against her will.
Two wrongs ...Plenty of muslim women go to university and plenty get jobs (there have little choice in this economy). And forced marriages is common in the indian community too.
Why does Turtles seem to think that Muslims all of a sudden are being singled out ?
I dont support any patriarchal primitive culture that chooses to maintain the nasty aspect of its old country ways, especially the inequality of women, when they have taken citizenship in a modern, developed, free country.
I ll step in when I see anglo wife beaters too, if I see it in public. The point you seem to continually ignore is all folks need to observe our laws and be mindful of our customs too. Thats the dealio. nobody is cherry picking, i am more prepared to go up against my own ethnic group when they behave badly. people are people, your religion has no value to me, only the actions of the individual. Forcing a woman to cover her face is deeply offensive to me, so are forced arranged marriages, etc etcetc..
same deal for everybody ie western customs and laws, that the immigrant swore an oath to accept and to respect upon gaing citizenship. Do you agree?
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I'm not saying forced marriage is ok in India, it just seems to me that it's easy to pick problems with islam as though they are unique to islam.
As for burkhas, headscarves, whatever. As I said, I don't agree that anyone should be forced to wear something they don't want to. And I seriously can't imagine how any women would want to wear a burkha. But highlighting the worst case and then implying it's representative of the whole religion is not a very useful argument.
I suspect, if you went to Victoria Park on a Sunday and asked the helpers there whether they like their headscarves, the majority would say yes, they are happy to wear them as a symbol of their faith. Just like someone wearing a crucifix, or a skullcap, or any other religious paraphernalia. Would we argue that they are also 'forced' not to eat pork and 'forced' not to drink?
How many women wear these clothes out of fear of retribution and how many happily wear them with pride? I don't know. Do you?
I don't think anyone said or implied that it's unique to Islam. Lot's of religions, cultural or traditional practices may be seen as problematic, regardless if they are found to be common across some (or all) of them. My point is just that pointing this out doesn't help much.
I agree with that.As for burkhas, headscarves, whatever. As I said, I don't agree that anyone should be forced to wear something they don't want to. And I seriously can't imagine how any women would want to wear a burkha. But highlighting the worst case and then implying it's representative of the whole religion is not a very useful argument.
No I don't but it's no secret that Islam is very oppressive towards women and in some countries it is mandatory to wear the burka or at least a head scarf. If people want to wear such with pride then let them, but then you do away with such rules, too.I suspect, if you went to Victoria Park on a Sunday and asked the helpers there whether they like their headscarves, the majority would say yes, they are happy to wear them as a symbol of their faith. Just like someone wearing a crucifix, or a skullcap, or any other religious paraphernalia. Would we argue that they are also 'forced' not to eat pork and 'forced' not to drink?
How many women wear these clothes out of fear of retribution and how many happily wear them with pride? I don't know. Do you?