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Soldier beheaded in Woolwich, UK. Sickening.

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  1. #431

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    Actually I think "if" is the wrong word...


  2. #432

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    Quote Originally Posted by iliketurtles:
    Moving, I don't understand.

    The examples you gave are certainly issues which first and second generation muslims faced. From my experience and having talked to 3/4th generation muslim friends, these types of issues are not as prevalent anymore. Again, I'm sure people can provide sources of incidents which contradict my view but I can only offer you my view. There was a film maybe fifteen years ago which portrayed (I think) a Pakistani first generation family coping with the British culture. It was hilarious but very poignant - a tyrant dad, one gay son, a tomboy daughter who hated boys etc etc. Can't remember the name of it though.

    In any event, any acts "of discrimination against women which is unlawful in the UK" will incur the wrath of the UK law. What are they going to do if their child doesn't comply? Beat them? That's illegal. Kill them? That's illegal. And whilst is it also illegal to do so according to my (admittedly limited) understaning of Sharia law, the UK doesn't bend to the will of any particular religion.
    Plenty of these examples in the British press pretty much any day of the week. I don't know how representative they are - the press is not exactly beholden to anyone to be fair - but it still exists. When I googled Sharia law courts in the UK (I put one link up) I found a few shocking stories of what was happening in them - the general theme of which appeared to be "anti woman". e.g. men being given easy divorce but women being told to "go back to your husband and try harder". I was surprised this was being allowed, in this day and age, in the UK. Surprised and shocked. It's no wonder that folks get anti-Islam when you read this stuff. I agree, most religious people (of any faith) are perfectly fine. But not all. And I still think it's more cultural than religious, to be honest, but religion is the rallying cry from both sides.

  3. #433

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    Moving - I agree that women feeling forced to wear a burkha is completely unacceptable. But what about the women who wear head scarfs? Is that unacceptable too? After all, that is far more common than a full burkha. Plenty of muslim women go to university and plenty get jobs (there have little choice in this economy). And forced marriages is common in the indian community too.

    I'm not condoning islam - it is majorly flawed, and I know you confessed it was a generalisation, but I think these kind of generalisations don't help. If people referred to being opposed to 'muslim extremists' rather than just 'muslims' in general, it would change the tone of the conversation dramatically, and almost everyone would be in agreement.


  4. #434

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claire ex-ax:
    You forgot there is this thing called the Internet.

    Reminds me of this story:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21953899

  5. #435

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    Quote Originally Posted by usehername:
    Moving - I agree that women feeling forced to wear a burkha is completely unacceptable. But what about the women who wear head scarfs? Is that unacceptable too? After all, that is far more common than a full burkha. Plenty of muslim women go to university and plenty get jobs (there have little choice in this economy). And forced marriages is common in the indian community too.

    I'm not condoning islam - it is majorly flawed, and I know you confessed it was a generalisation, but I think these kind of generalisations don't help. If people referred to being opposed to 'muslim extremists' rather than just 'muslims' in general, it would change the tone of the conversation dramatically, and almost everyone would be in agreement.
    I think women being FORCED to do anything is wrong. Headscarves or burkhas - if they want to wear them, fine, if they don't, NOT FINE.

    I completely agree re the general vs the fundamentalists - on the whole I have no problem with majority of any religion which operates in "normal, civilised" manner. But any religion which oppresses part of its congregation, or who tries to force it's views onto others (the creationism debate in the USA, for example or the "no cartoons of Mohamed" brigade) is wrong or which mutilates it's children (men or women, for supposed religious or other daft reasons).

  6. #436

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    I think women being FORCED to do anything is wrong. Headscarves or burkhas - if they want to wear them, fine, if they don't, NOT FINE.

    I completely agree re the general vs the fundamentalists - on the whole I have no problem with majority of any religion which operates in "normal, civilised" manner. But any religion which oppresses part of its congregation, or who tries to force it's views onto others (the creationism debate in the USA, for example or the "no cartoons of Mohamed" brigade) is wrong or which mutilates it's children (men or women, for supposed religious or other daft reasons).
    I completely agree - no one should be forced to do anything. But what I'm trying to say is that different muslims interpret the koran in different ways - in the same way that different christians interpret the bible in different ways. As a result, there are different versions of islam - with the violently sexist fundamentalists at one extreme, and perfectly normal, civilised people at the other.

  7. #437

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    Quote Originally Posted by usehername:
    Moving - I agree that women feeling forced to wear a burkha is completely unacceptable. But what about the women who wear head scarfs? Is that unacceptable too? After all, that is far more common than a full burkha.
    It's not about what they wear, it's about if they are being forced to wear and the consequences when they don't.
    And rest assured, a woman forced to wear a burka or head scarf will also have a lot of other restrictions imposed on her against her will.

    Plenty of muslim women go to university and plenty get jobs (there have little choice in this economy). And forced marriages is common in the indian community too.
    Two wrongs ...

  8. #438

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    Why does Turtles seem to think that Muslims all of a sudden are being singled out ?

    I dont support any patriarchal primitive culture that chooses to maintain the nasty aspect of its old country ways, especially the inequality of women, when they have taken citizenship in a modern, developed, free country.

    I ll step in when I see anglo wife beaters too, if I see it in public. The point you seem to continually ignore is all folks need to observe our laws and be mindful of our customs too. Thats the dealio. nobody is cherry picking, i am more prepared to go up against my own ethnic group when they behave badly. people are people, your religion has no value to me, only the actions of the individual. Forcing a woman to cover her face is deeply offensive to me, so are forced arranged marriages, etc etcetc..

    same deal for everybody ie western customs and laws, that the immigrant swore an oath to accept and to respect upon gaing citizenship. Do you agree?

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using GeoClicks mobile app

    MovingIn07 likes this.

  9. #439

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raccon:
    It's not about what they wear, it's about if they are being forced to wear and the consequences when they don't.
    And rest assured, a woman forced to wear a burka or head scarf will also have a lot of other restrictions imposed on her against her will.


    Two wrongs ...
    I'm not saying forced marriage is ok in India, it just seems to me that it's easy to pick problems with islam as though they are unique to islam.

    As for burkhas, headscarves, whatever. As I said, I don't agree that anyone should be forced to wear something they don't want to. And I seriously can't imagine how any women would want to wear a burkha. But highlighting the worst case and then implying it's representative of the whole religion is not a very useful argument.

    I suspect, if you went to Victoria Park on a Sunday and asked the helpers there whether they like their headscarves, the majority would say yes, they are happy to wear them as a symbol of their faith. Just like someone wearing a crucifix, or a skullcap, or any other religious paraphernalia. Would we argue that they are also 'forced' not to eat pork and 'forced' not to drink?

    How many women wear these clothes out of fear of retribution and how many happily wear them with pride? I don't know. Do you?

  10. #440

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    Quote Originally Posted by usehername:
    I'm not saying forced marriage is ok in India, it just seems to me that it's easy to pick problems with islam as though they are unique to islam.
    I don't think anyone said or implied that it's unique to Islam. Lot's of religions, cultural or traditional practices may be seen as problematic, regardless if they are found to be common across some (or all) of them. My point is just that pointing this out doesn't help much.

    As for burkhas, headscarves, whatever. As I said, I don't agree that anyone should be forced to wear something they don't want to. And I seriously can't imagine how any women would want to wear a burkha. But highlighting the worst case and then implying it's representative of the whole religion is not a very useful argument.
    I agree with that.

    I suspect, if you went to Victoria Park on a Sunday and asked the helpers there whether they like their headscarves, the majority would say yes, they are happy to wear them as a symbol of their faith. Just like someone wearing a crucifix, or a skullcap, or any other religious paraphernalia. Would we argue that they are also 'forced' not to eat pork and 'forced' not to drink?

    How many women wear these clothes out of fear of retribution and how many happily wear them with pride? I don't know. Do you?
    No I don't but it's no secret that Islam is very oppressive towards women and in some countries it is mandatory to wear the burka or at least a head scarf. If people want to wear such with pride then let them, but then you do away with such rules, too.
    Skyhook likes this.

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