Wanna bet that many of not most women forced to wear the burka would do away with immediately it wouldn't it be for the laws? Then strip away the religious rules and cultural/social pressure and see how many would be left.
I think it is rather reasonable to assume that if there weren't such rules or laws in the first place few if any Muslim women would ever get the idea to voluntarily wear a burka or even the head scarf.
I think your conclusion is flawed - the Muslim women you see here (i.e. the helpers at Victoria Park) are virtually all Indonesians and even they wear the head scarf voluntarily it doesn't mean they are representative of all Muslim women, in particular those that live under strict laws in the Middle East for example.But is that a reasonable assumption? If you take the local example I mentioned earlier - in HK there is no rule that says muslim women must wear a headscarf but the majority still do. These helpers are away from their husbands/fathers and a risk of being beaten, but they still wear them. So doesn't it make more sense to assume that the vast majority of women choose to wear them?
Actually I don't know if the majority if Indonesian helpers here in HK indeed wears a head scarf, I will try to pay attention to it next time I pass the park on a Sunday.
Because oppressive requires 'unjustly inflicting hardship and constraint, esp. on a minority or other subordinate group.' - if you can eat beef and chicken instead of pork or drink water and coke then by definition it won't be oppressive.So why have the rule in the first place? Good question. I don't know. But I'm assuming the rules also cover pork, alcohol etc etc - and yet nobody argues that this is an example of Islam being oppressive.
But force women to wear a black burka in the hot Middle East and surely it is.
Doesn't really matter though, it's all about the fact that people are not given a choice if they want to follow the 'rules' but instead are being forced to by law and cultural/social pressure, sometimes with violence (or the threat thereof).
I guess that this was the case initially for many religions, and still is in some, but as it has been mentioned some religions have moved on and the 'men-problem' seems to have been solved. Although I doubt we will see a female pope anytime soon.As for the issue of islam being anti-women, again, a muslim would argue that Islam is very respectful towards women, and for every sexist, misogynistic quote you can find in the koran (and there are many), they will find a contradictory one which demands that men honour and respect women. Some/many muslim men use the koran as a tool to oppress women and get what they want. The same was/is done by men of all religions. Perhaps the problem isn't islam - perhaps the problem is men
I can't imagine wanting to wear a burka either. Having said that I saw a documentary once in which the woman (in saudi) said she was happy to. I didn't believe her, but then again, I'm not muslim and I've never worn one. Maybe I'd feel different if I was. Maybe.
But as for just head scarves, do you feel the same way about sikh men wearing turbans? Or nuns wearing habits? Or orthodox jews in their black hats?
You're right that they don't represent middle eastern muslim women, but they represent asian muslim women, and are probably more representative if western/european muslim women. Why should middle eastern muslims be the benchmark against which islam is judged when it is practised so widely? Middle eastern islam appears to be the worst version of islam, but is that a reason to treated as representative of the whole of islam?I think your conclusion is flawed - the Muslim women you see here (i.e. the helpers at Victoria Park) are virtually all Indonesians and even they wear the head scarf voluntarily it doesn't mean they are representative of all Muslim women, in particular those that live under strict laws in the Middle East for example.
I've no idea of the numbers but it feels like every muslim women in asia is in victoria park on sundays.Actually I don't know if the majority if Indonesian helpers here in HK indeed wears a head scarf, I will try to pay attention to it next time I pass the park on a Sunday.Sunday
True, but again, is this a reflection of islam as a whole or just the countries in which these laws are in place? There's nothing in the koran about being covered head to toe in black cloth.Because oppressive requires 'unjustly inflicting hardship and constraint, esp. on a minority or other subordinate group.' - if you can eat beef and chicken instead of pork or drink water and coke then by definition it won't be oppressive.
But force women to wear a black burka in the hot Middle East and surely it is.
But assuming these women want to be muslim - and you might argue they are forced to be muslim, but for now let's say they are happy to be muslim, is it unreasonable for a faith to have a code of conduct which followers have to adhere to in order to actually be 'following' the faith? If you got rid of all the rules in any religion, what would be left? How would you distinguish a jew from a muslim if they no longer had distinct customs and clothes which set them apart. After all most faiths are basically the same: be good or the invisible man will punish you.Doesn't really matter though, it's all about the fact that people are not given a choice if they want to follow the 'rules' but instead are being forced to by law and cultural/social pressure, sometimes with violence (or the threat thereof).
I suspect 'never'...I guess that this was the case initially for many religions, and still is in some, but as it has been mentioned some religions have moved on and the 'men-problem' seems to have been solved. Although I doubt we will see a female pope anytime soon.
Last edited by usehername; 04-06-2013 at 12:44 AM.
I can't imagine that she felt happy either. Although I can imagine that you can get used to it if you were brought up in an environment where it's considered the norm.
I assume that most of those mentioned wear it by choice, not because someone or some law forces them to. So it's quite different since the issue was oppression, not wearing religious clothing in general. Else I would feel the same.But as for just head scarves, do you feel the same way about sikh men wearing turbans? Or nuns wearing habits? Or orthodox jews in their black hats?
You are right, it is not representative as such but a good example of how oppressive it can be, and no doubt a lot of oppressive "Islamic rules" are being tried to be implemented in Western/European countries.You're right that they don't represent middle eastern muslim women, but they represent asian muslim women, and are probably more representative if western/european muslim women. Why should middle eastern muslims be the benchmark against which islam is judged when it is practised so widely? Middle eastern islam appears to be the worst version of islam, but is that a reason to treated as representative of the whole of islam?
Even in moderate Malaysia renouncing Islam will make your life damned hard, so if you asked me if Islam is generally oppressive I can only answer with a clear 'yes'.
It's a reflection on those countries (see also previous paragraph).True, but again, is this a reflection of islam as a whole or just the countries in which these laws are in place? There's nothing in the koran about being covered head to toe in black cloth.
I think you are still missing the point - they can have all the rules they want and dress as they like as long as it's voluntarily and doesn't hurt or oppress anyone, because it's not the invisible man that is doing the punishing then.But assuming these women want to be muslim - and you might argue they are forced to be muslim, but for now let's say they are happy to be muslim, is it unreasonable for a faith to have a code of conduct which followers have to adhere to in order to actually be 'following' the faith? If you got rid of all the rules in any religion, what would be left? How would you distinguish a jew from a muslim if they no longer had distinct customs and clothes which set them apart. After all most faiths are basically the same: be good or the invisible man will punish you.
For people who would like to peruse some quite extensive survey data: http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-w...s-society.aspx (Click on the links in the right hand column for the different topics.)
More reading!
Why we should be vocal as atheists.
This was it...
Is Bryant the first ever born-again atheist? (They always say the late arrivals are the worst)
Anyway, a balanced view here, although I am sure geo will find room to disagree
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/russ...b_3347964.html