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  1. #11

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    A little bit more about the second amendment and the recent ruling...

    Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It seems to boil down to grammar.

    In "District of Columbia v. Heller", the Supreme Court majority held that The Second Amendment is formed with a prefatory clause, followed by an operative clause.[6] The prefatory clause serves to clarify the operative clause, but neither limits nor expands the scope of the operative clause.[7] Four dissenting justices strongly disagreed, calling the majority reading "strained and unpersuasive."

    The prefatory clause is similar to a Latin grammatical construction known as an ablative absolute. Proponents argue that the significance of this grammar was understood to the framers who were more schooled in Latin grammar than is common in modern times.
    Way above my pay grade if you ask me ..

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnowItAll:
    A little bit more about the second amendment and the recent ruling...

    Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It seems to boil down to grammar.



    Way above my pay grade if you ask me ..
    What's the Latin for total bullshit?

  3. #13

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    [QUOTE=gilleshk;225699]Unbelievable, the Bush posse on the Supreme Court have basically overturned a gun ban in Washington DC
    [QUOTE]

    I was going to let this go, but decided I can't pass it up.

    Bush only has two appointees on the court. So it isn't his posse. Can't blame this one on him.


  4. #14

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    I agree that the right to bear arms and the militia do not translate into every idiot having a gun however that is not how the United States has developed.

    The gun mentality and lobby is one of the most powerful in the USA much like public health care is an anathema to all they hold sacred and sacrosanct.


  5. #15

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    The NRA has a "lifesaving Eddie Eagle® Gun Safety Program" -

    Hope he better at that than he was at ski-jumping


  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    I agree that the right to bear arms and the militia do not translate into every idiot having a gun however that is not how the United States has developed.
    For better or for worse, throughout history the US disagrees with you.
    Honestly, if the US would simply enforce the rules that exist, a lot of this gun stuff would go away. People should be allowed to own guns, but within the existing laws.

    From Scalia's opinion:
    He (Breyer) criticizes us for declining to establish a level of scrutiny for evaluating Second Amendment restrictions. He proposes, explicitly at least, none of the traditionally expressed levels (strict scrutiny, intermediate scrutiny, rational basis), but rather a judge-empowering "interest-balancing inquiry" that "asks whether the statute burdens a protected interest in a way or to an extent that is out of proportion to the statute's salutary effects upon other important governmental interests." . . .. After an exhaustive discussion of the arguments for and against gun control, Justice Breyer arrives at his interest-balanced answer: because handgun violence is a problem, because the law is limited to an urban area, and because there were somewhat similar restrictions in the founding period (a false proposition that we have already discussed), the interest-balancing inquiry results in the constitutionality of the handgun ban. QED.
    We know of no other enumerated constitutional right whose core protection has been subjected to a freestanding "interest-balancing" approach. The very enumeration of the right takes out of the hands of government--even the Third Branch of Government--the power to decide on a case-by-case basis whether the right is really worth insisting upon. A constitutional guarantee subject to future judges' assessments of its usefulness is no constitutional guarantee at all.

  7. #17

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    [quote=Sleuth;225825][QUOTE=gilleshk;225699]Unbelievable, the Bush posse on the Supreme Court have basically overturned a gun ban in Washington DC


    I was going to let this go, but decided I can't pass it up.

    Bush only has two appointees on the court. So it isn't his posse. Can't blame this one on him.
    When it's a 5-4 ruling, I think he can take some of the blame

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    What's the Latin for total bullshit?
    stercus tauri

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleuth:
    For better or for worse, throughout history the US disagrees with you.
    Honestly, if the US would simply enforce the rules that exist, a lot of this gun stuff would go away. People should be allowed to own guns, but within the existing laws.
    Why do US civilians need to own guns Sleuth ?

    Is there something going on in the USA that makes your society different from the majority gun controlled modern world ?

    Regardless of gun control measures, criminals will always be able to purchase illegal hand guns, no matter how tight the gun control measures in place globally, but it still doesn't answer the reasoning why the majority of law abiding citizens need to own a concealable hand gun.

    Are all Americans paranoid about home invasions or something? It's a strange concept to me, unless you grew up in South Africa during the height of Apartheid, then I can fully understand why a hand gun might be located in the telephone table drawer in the hallway, nearest the front/back door, of the family home.

    I don't think Americans really appreciate how easy they have had it in their country, by the way they fear thy fellow human. Feeling the need to own a hand gun, reinforces that xenophobia.

    Otherwise what is the reason ? Just for the sake of ?

    Is there any rational explanation for Joe public to own a hand gun in a modern civilized metropolis ?
    Last edited by Skyhook; 27-06-2008 at 02:35 PM.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleuth:
    The Constitution is specifically designed to prevent one branch of government from having more power than the others. There is a mechanism to overturn this ruling, but amending the Constitution is difficult.
    And if you let DC or Chicago overrule the US Constitution on guns, where would you draw the line?

    You think bans will bring chaos? How long has the Chicago ban stood? How long did it take after the Supreme Court ruling to have it challenged AGAIN? You tell me what causes chaos...

    What does a ruling by the Supreme Court have to do with US democracy anyway?
    As I said, a body of elected officials deemed this necessary for their community and a group of appointed and not elected officials decided to overrule them.

    That is the essence of democracy: Democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system." In the phrase of Abraham Lincoln, democracy is a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people."

    The judges didn't overturn a conviction here, they struck down a law that was passed by elected officials for the good of their community by going back to an ancient phrase in a document that hardly applies in today's context.

    And this tidbit of information highlights the political aspects of the decision:

    Strict gun laws got a boost after the Chicago suburb of Morton Grove successfully defended its handgun ban, which was passed in 1981 and immediately challenged in state and federal court. The lawyers who filed the suits tried a variety of arguments, citing privacy, the Second Amendment, and a similar provision in the Illinois Constitution's Bill of Rights ("Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed").

    In the 1982 decision Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit rejected these arguments by a 2-to-1 vote. The Illinois Supreme Court followed suit, by a 4-to-3 margin, in the 1984 ruling Kalodimos v. Village of Morton Grove. The U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal of Quilici.

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