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US democracy at work

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  1. #51

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    While I understand why a gun MIGHT have been necessary a few decades ago when farmer joe had to defend its territory blablabla, I am still wondering why people need to have guns nowadays (especially in developped cities/countries where it is not really necessary to have a gun/knife to kill your lunch or your diner)

    Educating people might be one solution, but wouldn't you agree also that if carrying a gun is (at least) made difficult (throught a series of test, follow up,....) it would somehow reduce the number of stupid accident / murder?

    Not convinced...

    Well why not try for a few years and then we see. The good old empirical analysis.

    Ban or at least put restriction on guns/knifes for say 15-20 years and see the result...

    if the number of stupid accident / murder decrease then surely the ban/restriction might have worked

    if the number of stupid accident / murder increase or stay the same then we were wrong and you guys can go ahead and carry gun again without any restriction.


  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayinhongkong:
    Y

    Used to sleep with a 12 gauge Mossberg too. As long as you're extremely careful with firearms, you'll be fine. You need to keep 'em pointed in a safe direction all the time.
    Why on Earth would you sleep with a loaded shot gun ?

    I must be missing something here, but it weirds me out that people have such a fear complex that they need a gun for "protection " ?

    Why ?

    I thought USA was the land of the free.... I keep being told how good a country it is, but you need to sleep with a gun under your bed.....wtf ?

    To think I never locked my doors and left my windows open when i was at home in Australia, and NEVER had firearms in the family metropolitan home. Come to think of it, its exactly the same deal in France when we are over there. We open the town house right up in summer, and I don't think its ever crossed my mind that our safety would be risked as a result. Maybe because the neighbours are friendly. Who knows....

    You seriously need to look at your society in a VERY big way and finally ADMIT where it is you are going wrong.

    Nobody should accept sleeping with a loaded shot gun as a normal societal lifestyle. That's crazy !

    It really makes me shake my head about the American NEED to protect themselves from all their enemies, the boogie man, or Osama Bin Laden, or who ever it is you Americans are afraid of..

    It must really suck to live every waiting minute of your life, to think that someone is out there willing to hurt you.

    Hong Kong must be the moon, on a public safety perspective, for the Americans that now live in the HKSAR.

    Just maybe, because all guns are prohibited here attract a stiff jail term attached to anybody in the public unauthorized to posses one.

    It's fantastic that this law has been enforced, by a responsible police force, that does what its paid to do, protect the public.


    Unbelievable huh
    Last edited by Skyhook; 27-06-2008 at 07:42 PM.

  3. #53

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    So you can't be interested in your own self defense without being paranoid and borderline psychotic?


  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayinhongkong:
    Since nobody can legally pack (except for law enforcement and a select few others), the rest are sitting ducks. This will level the playing field, so to speak.
    The correlation between firearm availability and rates of homicide is consistent across highincome
    industrialized nations: where there are more firearms, there are higher rates of
    homicide overall.10 The U.S. has the highest rates of both firearm homicide and private
    firearm ownership.

    Firearms injury is the second leading cause of non-natural death in childhood and adolescence. (CDC, 2004)

    Of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998)

    It would appear that, rather than beign used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.

    So your sitting duck theory is somewhat invalidated by statistics...Whether the crime rate decreases or not, there are plenty of good reasons to have gun control as shown in many many other countries.

    On top of it, shouldn't it be up to the communities or states to decide with their elected officials as to how they want to live as opposed to appointed Federal judges?

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfire:
    So you can't be interested in your own self defense without being paranoid and borderline psychotic?
    Why don't you call a qualified psychiatrist and ask them what they would think, if you slept with a loaded shot gun.....

    What do you think their response would be? Normal behavior ?

    Sorry, but I think that's an absurd notion.

    It also speaks volumes about the break down in society, if you feel the need to arm your home with guns, to feel safe at night.

    That's really a sad society, and one that i would never choose to live amongst if that is the case, although Americans tell me it isn't, but when you ask them, do you own a hand gun, and they respond with " yeah I have 2 "lol, it doesn't make any sense to me.

    The day I have to buy a gun to feel protected in my own home, is the day I pull the pin on that society/country and walk away with pure disgust in my fellow man/woman.
    Last edited by Skyhook; 27-06-2008 at 09:43 PM.

  6. #56

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    One issue in the US is the widespread ownership of firearms. There are far more guns out there than people. Even if they were to ban all guns now (which would cause SERIOUS riots), there would be plenty around. The firearm issue is a cultural one more than one of numbers though.

    Finland and Switzerland both have a large number of gun owners, but I can assure you Mexico and Thailand have higher firearm-related assault and murder rates. There are a lot of people in the US who think it is perfectly OK to shoot someone for their property or because they dissed you, which is why I chose guns that were suitable for defensive purposes. I actually genuinely enjoy shooting and I love the design of firearms, so sleeping with a shotgun was not particularly unusual for me. I used to sleep with bb guns when I was a kid.

    There are just some people who genuinely like weapons. I've never hurt anyone with any of my toys.

    I do think firearm laws are a good idea, but I think people should be allowed to own them after psychological screening and safety tests, not by forking out shitloads of cash. We should be allowed to own them if we want to and are suitable owners, not because we 'need' them. In that sense, yes, America is the land of the free, because the government trusts its people to own weapons, whereas other countries do not.

    Firearm related crime is increasing in the UK. Handguns cannot be purchased there legally, yet the numbers being found on the streets are skyrocketing. I think we're going to see this trend occur worldwide. Guns are fairly primitive in design and anyone with a little know-how and desire can craft a very effective and accurate weapon with relatively basic tools, especially with modern technology being what it is.

    Yes, HK is safe, but shit happens here. I know three women who have been physically assaulted here: two on the MTR and one in a lift in Kowloon. In all three cases, the police couldn't do anything. It's nice to be able to hold yourself down when shit hits the fan. My dad's been tied up and robbed at knife point twice. I like to know I have a fighting chance (if need be) and that I won't cower and be killed as easily the majority of sheeple (sheep-like people) out there.

    Additionally, Gilles, if you look at US crime stats, the states where firearm ownership is highest often have the lowest crime rates. Big cities in America have the highest, and they also have the toughest gun laws. DC is a prime example. It's certain facets of modern urban culture to blame, not the availability of firearms.


  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Why don't you call a qualified psychiatrist and ask them what they would think, if you slept with a loaded shot gun.....

    What do you think their response would be? Normal behavior ?

    Sorry, but I think that's an absurd notion.
    I'm sure there are a number of psychiatrists out there who sleep with firearms within reach. It is perfectly normal behavior for many, whether you like it or not. One of my roommates in the US had a father who was a psychiatrist. He had a CCW permit in Texas and always carried a revolver.

  8. #58

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    Hmm seems to be a dearth of con law scholars out here in HK. Anyway, this is obviously not about separation of powers as the rule in question was a local rule and not a Federal law.

    I don't think any jurists question the basis of the 2nd amendment. However, all jurists agree that the 2nd amendment does permit local and state government to impose some restrictions on gun ownership and gun sales.

    For example, the ban on sales of assault weapons has not be overturned as unconstitutional.

    The question then is where to draw the line between consitutional and unconstitutional restrictions. Needless to say, this is a point where even reasonable con law scholars can disagree.

    In my view, the SCOTUS got it wrong today. The DC ban (and the Chicago one too) are bans on hand guns; they are not bans on all guns, DC and Chicago residents remain free to purchase shotguns and rifles.

    I see no distinction between a ban on one category of guns (assault weapons) which is declared in conformity with the 2nd amendment and another ban on a category of guns (hand guns) which the SCOTUS has now declared unconsitutional.

    To me, this is simply evidence of the changes on the Court wrought by W. Without Roberts and Alito, the DC law is upheld.


  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Why don't you call a qualified psychiatrist and ask them what they would think, if you slept with a loaded shot gun.....

    What do you think their response would be? Normal behavior ?

    Sorry, but I think that's an absurd notion.

    It also speaks volumes about the break down in society, if you feel the need to arm your home with guns, to feel safe at night.

    That's really a sad society, and one that i would never choose to live amongst if that is the case, although Americans tell me it isn't, but when you ask them, do you own a hand gun, and they respond with " yeah I have 2 "lol, it doesn't make any sense to me.

    The day I have to buy a gun to feel protected in my own home, is the day I pull the pin on that society/country and walk away with pure disgust in my fellow man/woman.
    You might not think you need one until you're confronted with a situation when you wish you had one. Might well be too late to 'pull the pin' by then. I wholeheartedly agree that a lot of people's values have gone down the toilet. I refuse to have my freedom and liberty infringed upon by those who seek to do me harm for who I am, what I have or what I believe.

    Fortunately, the porosity of our border with China and the availability of firearms north of it haven't (majorly) affected us (yet). I would still like to have a firearm (or five) around.
    Last edited by jayinhongkong; 27-06-2008 at 09:58 PM.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Why don't you call a qualified psychiatrist and ask them what they would think, if you slept with a loaded shot gun.....

    What do you think their response would be? Normal behavior ?

    It also speaks volumes about the break down in society, if you feel the need to arm your home with guns, to feel safe at night.

    That's really a sad society, and one that i would never choose to live amongst if that is the case, although Americans tell me it isn't, but when you ask them, do you own a hand gun, and they respond with " yeah I have 2 "lol, it doesn't make any sense to me.

    The day I have to buy a gun to feel protected in my own home, is the day I pull the pin on that society/country and walk away with pure disgust in my fellow man/woman.
    Do you think psychiatrists are the only ones able to comment on human behavior? Just because they have a degree and dispense pills does not mean they possess some magical knowledge about the human mind that the rest of us could not possibly comprehend.

    Jay doesn't seem psychotic, and there's no reason he'd have to be just because he had a shotgun by his bed. It's tactically sound. It's immediately available when you wake up. There's every chance that by the time you become aware of an intruder, he's already well inside your home and you're unable to fetch it from behind your front door, your closet, or wherever else you might keep it.

    You don't have to be psychotic or paranoid to make preparations in the event of an attack on your person. It could happen to you anywhere. All you need to have is a desire to live and a willingness to stand up to someone who's ready to take everything from you.

    Say what you will about the breakdown of society and lament it all you want, but that's the world we live in. Perhaps it's not as apparent in Hong Kong where people are used to being safe and rarely hear of violent attacks. There are people who are willing to harm you over nothing more than the contents of your wallet, and even less. You don't have to be paranoid to recognize that.

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