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Shooting at Paris satirical magazine

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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurtmesome:
    Perhaps we should also do some self reflection here.

    I think these terrorists should face justice for this crime.
    Having said that I do keep thinking about what a former Muslim colleague of mine said: you can ridicule me, I don't care. But don't ridicule the prophet or Allah. That's just not cool.

    The self reflection I'm trying to point out is: we know that these people take their religion very seriously and we do say that in our constitution that everyone has the right to believe in whichever god(s) they want to. But at the same time we want to ridicule that religion, which some hold sacred, whenever we want.

    i do believe there should be freedom of speech, but where does one draw the line? When does sarcasm become very bad taste?

    one thing that bothers me most is, saying that people should just tolerate the insults. That they should change their attitudes and accept that in the west we ridicule about what we want.
    But isn't that the same as asking a homosexual to be not gay?
    True gay people don't kill heteros over jokes, that's not the point. The essence is the same. Can u force someone to change who they are?

    Eitherway, Condolences to the people who have lost loved ones in this senseless attack.
    The irony.... You say "can u force someone to change who they are". Do you think the cartoonists where trying to change anyone? What about the people who decided that they have the power to condemn anyone else's place in society and the right to carry out the gravest of punishments on their own recognisance? At the core of their actions and beliefs, they were determined to deny the humanity of all those they disagreed with and, if they could, they would rid the world of anyone they deemed unworthy of life. Who then really is trying to "force" someone to change who they are?
    People disagree in a society. Over all manner of things. What gives Muslims the right to kill over their beliefs as you seem to be condoning? Is "bad taste" the only reason people can do this? What about if somebody ridicules my favourite sports team and as you put it I think "that's not cool". Do I have the right to kill them?

    I would love you to give this argument to the people that have lost loved ones instead of your hollow offer of "condolences" after you type such bile and stomp over what they died trying to defend.
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgl:
    My answer to that kind of attitude would be that overall societal values override the values of religious groups within that society. If someone is going to choose to live in France, then they should respect French social freedoms.
    I want to agree with you but thats is where the problem lies. The French constitution states that people have freedom of religion.
    Muslims cannot tolerate it that the prophet and that Allah are being ridiculed. So the question is: should the constitution be rewritten?
    HK_Katherine likes this.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creative83:
    The 'terrorists' are responding to a cause (& effect). The magazine pushed their luck and had gone too far in the eyes of those shooters.

    So, they caused their own deaths. Repercussions are just there sometimes.

    Sure, the shooters (if the media in fact is not lying about their motivations) is attempting to warn those who insults Muhammad and in the larger context infringed on 'freedom of speech'.

    But it's also a fact that the magazine staff produced something and that caused their own deaths.

    Think about children whose mother are insulted by another kid. I would expect the kid to over react and start throwing punches. Sure, you just get a bunch of adults to start discussing about school rules.

    I'm merely saying the injured kid is the one who began the chain of events.
    That is very weird logic. To take it to an extreme, someone who gets run over and killed by a car causes his own death because he chose to step out of his front door that morning.

    In this magazine case, there were victims who most likely had absolutely nothing to do with the offensive cartoons. One is reported to be an ecomonist... is he responsible for his own death because he chose to work at the same magazine that employed some cartoonists?

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurtmesome:
    I want to agree with you but thats is where the problem lies. The French constitution states that people have freedom of religion.
    Muslims cannot tolerate it that the prophet and that Allah are being ridiculed. So the question is: should the constitution be rewritten?
    I suspect that there's a very simple legal answer to this, but I'm not a lawyer. I would guess that it goes that people can believe whatever religion they want as long as it does not break laws.

    An analogy would be the US and whatever religion allows for polygamy... the nations laws override the religion.
    Last edited by jgl; 08-01-2015 at 02:04 PM.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by rathunt:
    The irony.... You say "can u force someone to change who they are". Do you think the cartoonists where trying to change anyone? What about the people who decided that they have the power to condemn anyone else's place in society and the right to carry out the gravest of punishments on their own recognisance? At the core of their actions and beliefs, they were determined to deny the humanity of all those they disagreed with and, if they could, they would rid the world of anyone they deemed unworthy of life. Who then really is trying to "force" someone to change who they are?
    People disagree in a society. Over all manner of things. What gives Muslims the right to kill over their beliefs as you seem to be condoning? Is "bad taste" the only reason people can do this? What about if somebody ridicules my favourite sports team and as you put it I think "that's not cool". Do I have the right to kill them?

    I would love you to give this argument to the people that have lost loved ones instead of your hollow offer of "condolences" after you type such bile and stomp over what they died trying to defend.
    I think you misinterpret my post. I DONT think this attack was right or any attack for that matter.
    BUT, I do question the matter of: is it cool to deliberately insult people knowing they would be seriously offended.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgl:
    That is very weird logic. To take it to an extreme, someone who gets run over and killed by a car causes his own death because he chose to step out of his front door that morning.

    In this magazine case, there were victims who most likely had absolutely nothing to do with the offensive cartoons. One is reported to be an ecomonist... is he responsible for his own death because he chose to work at the same magazine that employed some cartoonists?
    Read post #5

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurtmesome:
    I want to agree with you but thats is where the problem lies. The French constitution states that people have freedom of religion.
    Muslims cannot tolerate it that the prophet and that Allah are being ridiculed. So the question is: should the constitution be rewritten?
    Great idea but why stop there? Let's just give in completely. Muhammad said that "he had been ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger" so let's just make it unconstitutional to be non Muslim and be done with it?

    Please tell me you are just trolling and are not actually being serious? Losing faith in humanity...

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurtmesome:
    I think you misinterpret my post. I DONT think this attack was right or any attack for that matter.
    BUT, I do question the matter of: is it cool to deliberately insult people knowing they would be seriously offended.
    Yes, it's cool. It's part of a mature and responsible society to be able to question and make fun of itself. Especially in France where the tradition is extremely well established. And where we get the work caricature from in the first place.
    rathunt, Liked and HK_Katherine like this.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creative83:
    Read post #5
    I already did, and responded to it in #17.

    Basically this kind of logic is something that I considered and then grew out of back in high school. I really don't understand how you can honestly hold that up as a defense.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by rathunt:
    Great idea but why stop there? Let's just give in completely. Muhammad said that "he had been ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger" so let's just make it unconstitutional to be non Muslim and be done with it?

    Please tell me you are just trolling and are not actually being serious? Losing faith in humanity...
    Sighs, the troll ghost again. Seriously, is everyone who disagrees with you a troll? Are you that intolerant that you will not look at the coin from the other side?
    You are, in my opinion, just as repressive as some radical Muslims. You will not accept it that others may not agree with you.

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