Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    The point is Torture (here are refer to what Climber brought up at the very beginning - water boarding) has been used for centuries and so far the result is far from positive...so I just wonder why going even more in that direction.
    Mat, the reason Water Boarding has been used for centuries.....is because it works as an effective way of extracting information. If it didn't work, it wouldn't be used. It's that simple. Thus if you're testing the effectiveness, I would suggest the results are indeed positive.

    Do the ends justify the means??? That is what I believe we're discussing here....

  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    While I disagree with aussiegal on the torture/death penalty issue I also disagree with you on the "a death is a death" argument. Suppose your loved one was killed in a road accident. Would it make no differences to your feelings if it was (i) their own fault or (ii) killed by a drunk driver? Also deaths do have more impact the closer you are to the person. Death and our reaction to it is a very personal thing and not at all rational.
    Well frankly whenever someone has died close to me, I couldn't care less what they died from... the result is the same and it doesn't feel any better one way or the other. You are telling me you would be less sad if your wife/children/friend died in an accident where she made a mistake than if she was hit by a drunk driver?

    It's easier to be angry at the drunk guy and blame him for the death and wanting revenge but it doesn't change the ultimate outcome.

  3. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    Yes Gilles, the terrorists are winning or haven't you worked that one out yet.
    And what have they won besides scaring little girls and killing innocent people? You want to blame them on the destabilization of the government in Iraq and Afghanistan? You could just as well blame western forces for the same thing depending on your point of view...

    The governments of both Iraq and Afghanistan were more stable if not necessarily better before the interventions...

  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by climber07:
    Mat, the reason Water Boarding has been used for centuries.....is because it works as an effective way of extracting information. If it didn't work, it wouldn't be used. It's that simple. Thus if you're testing the effectiveness, I would suggest the results are indeed positive.
    Can you extract information..yes it can be very effective. It's also very effective at creating false confessions and for someone to say anything that will make the torture stop...

    Once again, who becomes the judge and jury? A soldier with emotional baggage that might have lost friends in last week's attack?

    It's barbaric and there's a reason why most countries agree not to use it overtly anyway.

    What the current US administration has done in Guantanamo is shameful and their own courts(and a large portion of the public) are recognizing that...

  5. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by climber07:
    Do the ends justify the means??? That is what I believe we're discussing here....
    Back to the debate (some people have to work)!

    I agree climber, your question is all what we are discussing!

    But I don't think we have the same view on the "ends".

    So I would add the following: what do we really want after the terrible acts in Mumbai?
    1) take revenge and kill all the terrorists?
    2) take revenge and kill all Pakistanese while forging some proof of terrorist camps there?
    3) take a deep breath first, remember that all the terrorism is fighting is liberty and equality for everybody; and decide to answer without doing any action that could make us forget what true values we support. (including the Geneva Convention, YES!)

    I have to mention that I was very surprised also at seeing that some people here are still questioning the death penalty... It seemed obvious to me that it had taken so many centuries to the Human Being to be smart enough to ban it...

    And I will conclude on a quote from aussiegal "education" !!!

    Education is all what matters. If everybody in the world had a chance to receive the same education as we all had, I guess Ben Laden could stay in the mountains for a long long time.

    PS: I guess we could have a real debate in a bar sometimes. It could be worth a gym class
    Last edited by psjylife; 28-11-2008 at 08:30 PM.

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    And what have they won besides scaring little girls and killing innocent people? You want to blame them on the destabilization of the government in Iraq and Afghanistan? You could just as well blame western forces for the same thing depending on your point of view...

    The governments of both Iraq and Afghanistan were more stable if not necessarily better before the interventions...
    Again, interpreting what you want to from someone's words. In my mind the terrorists are winning because they have made people feel fear. Full stop. I'm not blaming them for anything else.

    Insulting someone by calling them a little girl hardly makes you a big man. There is nothing wrong with feeling fear, being emotional, it's what makes us human - though clearly some more than others.

    And for the record, I know plenty of 'big, strong' men who are now rethinking travel plans to India. I seem to recall you not having children. If I remember correctly perhaps this explains your attitude. When you have children you do fear something happening to them or you. It might not be something you think about every day but it is something you feel intensely when a tragedy like the one in Mumbai happens.

    As for your death argument. I would feel different emotions if a loved one was killed by a drunk driver or died at their own hands by accident. My sadness would be the same but my anger and outrage wouldn't be.

  7. #187
    fm7

    I lived in India. If someone offered me the chance to move back there tomorrow, I would take it. I have a child.


  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by fm7:
    I lived in India. If someone offered me the chance to move back there tomorrow, I would take it. I have a child.
    My family is three generations born in India. I would happily move there but doesn't mean I'd feel comfortable staying in mainly Western hotels which is what the men I know are obliged to do when they travel there on business. Why take unnecessary risks? I still go to Bali but I'd never think about staying in Kuta.

  9. #189
    fm7

    If I've willing to live there, I don't see why someone would refuse to travel there for mercenary reasons. If it is so easy to shift the burden of travel, then do they really need to go in the first place?

    Oh, and it is somewhat ironic to hear luxury accommodation described as an obligation. I'll try that one next time I travel - "I don't want to to say in the Burj, I'm obliged to."


  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    Why take unnecessary risks? I still go to Bali but I'd never think about staying in Kuta.
    Silliest thing I ever heard...Terrorist could strike at any time in any of the western enclaves...are you staying with the local mullah to feel safer?

    You feel insulted by my little girl comment yet you have no trouble dishing out insults yourself...

    Guess you better stay in bed all day, that would be safer...

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