Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

Reply
Page 20 of 46 FirstFirst ... 12 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 28 ... LastLast
  1. #191

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sai Kung
    Posts
    1,328
    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    It's also very effective at creating false confessions and for someone to say anything that will make the torture stop...
    Yes, it is. That is why you have to use it very selectively and only as one of many options in interrogation. You don't use it to obtain confessions (there is typically plenty of other evidence to determine a subjects involvement in the activity in question).

    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    Once again, who becomes the judge and jury? A soldier with emotional baggage that might have lost friends in last week's attack?
    No, Army interrogation is precisely what is wrong with the entire process and why Guantanamo is such a cluster-fuck. Army is made to execute orders not make decisions or gather sensitive intelligence (they are brutes with guns, not 007). Intelligence gathering should be left to the professionals. Sadly, however, the CIA was deemed too powerful post cold-war and the politicians significantly cut funding and forced many hardened professionals into retirement. That is the true root of the problem. Under Bush Jr., they decided to cut all the strings and let the genie out of the bottle, but it was too late. Instead of having "old guard" mentors, they ended up rapidly expanding with gun-ho West Point recruits and FBI pencil necks and are fast on their way of using the fuel of fear and panic to take away civil liberties and create the next fascist state.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    It's barbaric and there's a reason why most countries agree not to use it overtly anyway.
    True, most politicians "openly" agree it's barbaric and should not be used.... because politicians are whores.

    However, behind closed doors; from the Chinese (MSS or Guoanbu) to Mossad to the French DRM to MI-6 and the FSB....Waterboarding is used (legally or illegally) everywhere in the world. If you don't think that it is, then you really are living in a fantasy world. The only difference is, most countries and intelligence agencies are not stupid enough to leak their interrogation techniques to the local/world media or to be the topics of couch debates. That is why every elite spy agency agents and military units (from SpetsNaz to NavySeals) are all subjected to regular waterboarding as part of their training. They are expected to be subjected to that treatment whenever they are captured and taught techniques to overcome it (breathing, heart rate control, suppression of gag reflex, etc). That is why, this technique is only used selectively on those who are not suspected to have been exposed to such training in the past.

    As a matter of fact, waterboarding has been significantly reduced in implementation of interrogation of Al Qaeda operatives, as even Al Qaeda training camps now include waterboarding as part of their training regime. Luckily....that is not the only tool at the disposal. (The problem is the information that is obtained....is not used to the full potential due to lack of good assets and heightened sensitivity to public scrutiny - courtesy of the global Media). No one has the balls to do what needs to be done.

  2. #192

    Torture is not only a proven ineffective means to an end, it is an end in itself. It springs from the idea that the end justifies the means, which is the basis of so much human misery throughout history. When we use abhorrent means to justify an end, that is what we are remembered for and what we perpetuate. Put another way, the actual end that we achieve in any process is the means that we use to get there (Hitler, Mao, Spanish Inquistion, crusades etc)

    A so called terrorist is someone who has taken the idea that the end justifies the means to an extreme. Torture is no better than that. Torture is the thin end of a wedge and part of the mindset that has lead also to the suspension of civil liberties, habeas corpus and the Constitution, dishonouring treaties, supporting pre-emptive strikes and nuking “enemies”, disregarding the Geneva convention and world opinion, creating a black and white “us vs them/good vs evil” world and so on. It all seems to be a package deal that has added, not lessened instability in the world. Some might say these are necessary means to an end in the so called “War On Terror”, but history will surely judge that Bush presided over a dark and ugly chapter in US history and steered it to become a place that reflects far less our highest human aspirations. That is the real end that Bush achieved.


  3. #193

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Gold Coast Marina
    Posts
    17,939
    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    Oh dear. Amongst the very many stupid things you have said this takes the biscuit.
    Huge numbers of countries in the world still execute murderers, including the USA and China. Just because you don't agree with it does not mean that anyone who does is wrong. I do agree with Aussiegal - provided there is irrefutable proof I have no problem with murderers losing their lives since they have taken a life from another. The only reason for not executing is the risk that we are wrong, hence the proof, which is the hard part.

  4. #194

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Sheung Wan
    Posts
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    The only reason for not executing is the risk that we are wrong.
    Oulala! That's not the only reason! Maybe one out of many!

    I think Hugo said "What is the law? You must not kill? How is the law enforced? By killing!"

    Can you educate people not to kill while you allow some to decide on the life of other people?

    Would you ask you kid "you can't do that, but mom can do it"

    I think I support once again the fact that the "Good" should not use any "Bad" means to reach any ends...

    There are sooooooo many arguments against... One I value also is that no one should decide to take a life. No one except God (but that depends if you believe in any God or not!)

    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Huge numbers of countries in the world still execute murderers, including the USA and China.
    Hum, China, USA, not very representative for advanced countries with a lot of history. "Old Europe" with its experience should be seen as more representative...

    Quote Originally Posted by HK_Newbie100:
    Torture is not only a proven ineffective means to an end, it is an end in itself....
    Very good post, exactly what I think!
    Last edited by psjylife; 29-11-2008 at 12:44 AM.

  5. #195
    fm7
    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Huge numbers of countries in the world still execute murderers, including the USA and China. Just because you don't agree with it does not mean that anyone who does is wrong. I do agree with Aussiegal - provided there is irrefutable proof I have no problem with murderers losing their lives since they have taken a life from another. The only reason for not executing is the risk that we are wrong, hence the proof, which is the hard part.
    That's an interesting way of putting it. Huge numbers implies some sort of majority. Whilst 60 or so countries still allow for capital punishment, not all actually use the provision. Moreover, when we consider economically developed nations, for example, members of the OECD, the picture is more stark.

    Of the current 30 OECD members, only two, Japan and the USA retain capital punishment - all the others have abolished it.

    The picture is murkier when we look at the countries currently seeking to join. Chile, Estonia, Slovenia, South Africa do not have the death penalty. China, India and Indonesia retain it. Brasil and Israel retain it for exceptional crimes, but neither have used it in my lifetime. Russia is in the balance - technically they have a moratorium on it, but they did use it in Chechnya. Even in an expanded OECD, only 5-6 countries would be active executioners.

    But, if we are considering numbers of countries as a measure of global opinion, then the most significant stat must surely be the number that have abolished capital punishment in the last 40 years. Looking at that, the picture is a clear move away from judicial executions.

  6. #196

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,905
    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    I do agree with Aussiegal - provided there is irrefutable proof I have no problem with murderers losing their lives since they have taken a life from another.
    That's a moot point because there is no such thing as irrefutable proof and that's not how legal systems work.

    It's not a deterrent, it's not necessarily cheaper and the only reason to do this is as a vengeful thing. You can't reverse mistakes that have been made and there will be mistakes... I see no logical reasons to have the death penalty.

  7. #197

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    4,025
    Quote Originally Posted by climber07:
    Mat, the reason Water Boarding has been used for centuries.....is because it works as an effective way of extracting information. If it didn't work, it wouldn't be used. It's that simple. Thus if you're testing the effectiveness, I would suggest the results are indeed positive.

    Do the ends justify the means??? That is what I believe we're discussing here....

    Then how come the experts from the CIA say that torture doesn't work? I saw the TV program on C-SPAN where this was being presented in some sort of panel.

    To me the issue is one of whether a truely civilized society can be proud to use such tactics when as PDLM said so briefly and eloquently yesterday - it is because we are better than them (terrorists).

    The USA is a nation of some interesting contradictions for a nation that has it roots in freedom from oppression. The US death penalty is state by state of course as there is national criminal code in that country and it speaks more of politics than civility.

    The Red Cross has said that 90% of Iraqis held in prison camps and tortured were not guilty of any crime and not linked to terrorism. They turned out to be family folks arrested at checkpoints and then tortured just because they did not have their paperwork in order.

    No leaders of Al-Qaeda have turned up at Guantanamo Bay. What they have is a collection of shoemakers and farmers most of whom had no concept of America and people who were given guns by the Taliban and were caught on the front lines.

    In Britain, of the over 500 arrests made on the grounds of terrorism, the only charges that were eventually made were either related to the IRA or immigration fraud. The most recent terror alert in Britain, a supposed plot to fly planes into London landmarks, was admittedly cooked up by ITN news executives and Home Office government minions.
    Last edited by Football16; 29-11-2008 at 06:44 PM.

  8. #198

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southside
    Posts
    656
    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    That's a moot point because there is no such thing as irrefutable proof and that's not how legal systems work.

    It's not a deterrent, it's not necessarily cheaper and the only reason to do this is as a vengeful thing. You can't reverse mistakes that have been made and there will be mistakes... I see no logical reasons to have the death penalty.
    There is such a thing as irrefutable proof. With media and technology today we watched the Mumbai attacks unfold. There will be many actual videos showing the terrorists gunning down people and many survivors who witnessed the killing. Are you telling me you don't feel comfortable sending these people to their death because you feel the evidence isn't enough.

    You simply can't understand that some people have something to live for, that they actually have great lives thus your ridiculous snide insults equating anyone who feels fear to being little girls.

    The only reason the death penalty isn't cheaper than keeping a murderer alive til he dies is because the system is set up to allow them many appeals and it takes years to finally get the go ahead.

    The only problem with the death penalty is that it relies on an unreliable legal system that often sees innocent people accused of things they didn't do. I don't approve of someone being sent to their death because they were black and in the wrong place at the wrong time but where there is irrefutable proof and a life has been taken there should be no hesitation.

  9. #199

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    6,356

    Videos can be edited and witnesses get things wrong all the time. People have been wrongly executed where 'irrefutable proof' existed. How 'bout putting people in labor camps instead?


  10. #200

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    180
    Quote Originally Posted by jayinhongkong:
    Videos can be edited and witnesses get things wrong all the time. People have been wrongly executed where 'irrefutable proof' existed. How 'bout putting people in labor camps instead?
    Videos are being uploaded and made available online within seconds of being shot. Further, if multiple videos exist shot by different people, hotel video surveillance and multiple witnesses exist saying the same thing that's irrefutable to me.
    I wouldn't be against putting them in the middle of nowhere and leaving them to themselves.

Reply
Page 20 of 46 FirstFirst ... 12 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 28 ... LastLast