Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialK:
    Videos are being uploaded and made available online within seconds of being shot. Further, if multiple videos exist shot by different people, hotel video surveillance and multiple witnesses exist saying the same thing that's irrefutable to me.
    I wouldn't be against putting them in the middle of nowhere and leaving them to themselves.
    Yup, there are cases where the evidence is indeed irrefutable, but I'm just scared that it will be abused (as we, as humans, seem to like to do). I also don't think it's right to take someone's life as people can and do change, so I'd rather have them contribute to society as a whole while incarcerated rather than pushing up daisies somewhere.

  2. #202

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    aussiegal are u of Indian origin?


  3. #203
    fm7

    Apparently some courageous soul finds my posts on this thread "idiotic."

    Hope the view is nice from inside the bubble you milksop.


  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayinhongkong:
    How 'bout putting people in labor camps instead?
    Completely agree with Jay here. No reason to waste someone when you can get free labor out of the deal.....or as I said earlier....Recycle.

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    It's the price we pay for being better than them. Fortunately, the majority is happy to pay that price.
    The argument here is not likely to get resolved as those who have strong views that state executions and/or torture are unlikely to be persuaded by the rest of us who think as PDLM put it a long time back on this thread that not killing/torturing prisoners is "the price we pay for being better than them."

    I for one don't want to live in a police state where people are routinely interrogated and tortured for confessions nor do I honestly believe we want to turn our armed forces into refuges for sadists and psychopaths which is what will occur if all governments adopted the open torture policy. What kind of people will these be back in the streets of our towns and villages who come out of these units? Wow. Nice husbands, fathers and wives. Military people struggle as it is with violence post war (many do today) can you imagine the torturers back in civil society? I can and it's ugly and repugnant.

    Allan Dershowitz of OJ Simpson defence fame wrote in his book that the state should be able to seek "torture warrants" when necessary and have this approved by the judge. But when he gets questioned by CNN when they captured a key Al Queda leader back in 2003, he backed off that it wasn't a "ticking time bomb" despite Blitzer saying how did he know and he admitted he didn't. I 'd like to see that little turd take some torture and if he likes it, okay let's do it on the others kind of like the police these days tasering each other for practice.

    CNN.com - Dershowitz: Torture could be justified - Mar. 3, 2003

    Here is a bit of the exchange:

    DERSHOWITZ: I want to ask you a question. Don't you think if we ever had a ticking-bomb case, regardless of your views or mine, that the CIA would actually either torture themselves or subcontract the job to Jordan, the Philippines or Egypt, who are our favorite countries, to do the torturing for us?

    KEN ROTH: OK, there is no moral or legal difference between torturing yourself and subcontracting torture to somebody else. They're equally absolutely prohibited.

    DERSHOWITZ: But we do it.

    ROTH: In the case -- the fact that sometimes laws are violated does not mean you want to start legitimizing the violation by getting some judge to authorize it. Imagine, you're always thinking about the U.S. Supreme Court, but any rule you apply to the United States has to be applied around the world. Do you want Chinese judges authorizing torture of say, Muslim dissidents?

    DERSHOWITZ: It wouldn't make any difference. They just torture anyway. It wouldn't make any difference. They torture now.

    ROTH: Once you open the door to torture, once you start legitimizing it in any way, you have broken the absolute taboo. President Bush had it right in his State of the Union address when he was describing various forms of torture by Saddam Hussein and he said, "If this isn't evil, then evil has no meaning."


    BLITZER: Well, let me interrupt, Ken. Let me ask you about a hypothetical case. Professor Dershowitz talks about it in one of his articles and one of his books. There's a terrorist attack. A lot of people have just been killed in New York. They capture one of the terrorists, who says, "Guess what, there's another bomb out there, it is going to kill a lot more, but I'm not telling you where it is."

    ROTH: Yes, that's the ticking-bomb scenario, which everybody loves to put forward as an excuse for torture. Israel tried that. Under the guise of just looking at the narrow exception of where the ticking-bomb is there and you could save the poor schoolchildren whose bus was about to be exploded some place. They ended up torturing on the theory that -- well, it may not be the terrorist, but it's somebody who knows the terrorist or it's somebody who might have information leading to the terrorist.

    They ended up torturing say 90 percent of the Palestinian security detainees they had until finally the Israeli supreme court had to say this kind of rare exception isn't working. It's an exception that's destroying the rule. We have to understand the United States sets a model for the rest of the world. And if the United States is going to authorize torture in any sense, you can imagine that there are many more unsavory regimes out there that are just dying for the chance to say, "Well, the U.S. is doing it, we're going to start doing it as well."

    -----------------------

    In his column Dershowitz goes further on ticking time bomb scenario that he says is allowed in Israel after the courts stopped routine torture:
    The Israeli Supreme Court left open the possibility, however, that in an actual "ticking bomb" case ...an agent who employed physical pressure could defend himself against criminal charges by invoking "the law of necessity."

    No such case has arisen since this court decision, despite numerous instances of terrorism in that troubled part of the world. Nor has there ever been a ticking bomb case in this country.
    Last edited by Football16; 30-11-2008 at 10:58 AM.

  6. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialK:
    Videos are being uploaded and made available online within seconds of being shot. Further, if multiple videos exist shot by different people, hotel video surveillance and multiple witnesses exist saying the same thing that's irrefutable to me.
    I wouldn't be against putting them in the middle of nowhere and leaving them to themselves.
    Indeed....sorta like the new Bond movie where he leaves Greene in the middle of a desert with nothing but a can of motor oil......perfect.

    in this case, perhaps a variation....a handgun with a single bullet maybe?

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    Then how come the experts from the CIA say that torture doesn't work? I saw the TV program on C-SPAN where this was being presented in some sort of panel.
    Oh I am so so sorry....I didn't realize that you saw it on a TV program! You're right, it MUST be true! How stupid of me!

    I believe not so long ago C-SPAN also featured a panel of "experts" who presented to the National Press Club in Washington..what they called...the "Disclosure Project." Sworn affidavits of pilots and former government worker who say they have been secretly working for the US government on covering up UFO phenomenon and observed alien technology. So I guess if we must go by C-SPAN...let me be the first to say "WELCOME TO OUR ALIEN OVERLORDS!"

  8. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    Well I am afraid that you are both wrong then.

    The Rule of Law is that the rights of individuals are determined by legal rules and not the arbitary behaviour of authorities...ie we are ruled by rules not rulers.. additionaly there can be no punishment unless the breach of the law has been so decided by a court and finally that no body is above the law, regardless of any position in socety.

    This does in anyway stipulate that all warfare is unlawful and therefore 'the very opposite of the rule of law'.
    go be a volunteer in iraqi or afganistan and tell me you will follow all rules of the geneva convention to a dot...

    you are just talking it from the armchair of your comfortable room and of cos you can say all you want.


    for that matter of fact, training of the 'geneva' convention in organized military training is pretty minor.

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by climber07:
    Oh I am so so sorry....I didn't realize that you saw it on a TV program! You're right, it MUST be true! How stupid of me!

    I believe not so long ago C-SPAN also featured a panel of "experts" who presented to the National Press Club in Washington..what they called...the "Disclosure Project." Sworn affidavits of pilots and former government worker who say they have been secretly working for the US government on covering up UFO phenomenon and observed alien technology. So I guess if we must go by C-SPAN...let me be the first to say "WELCOME TO OUR ALIEN OVERLORDS!"
    Sure the reference to C-SPAN was maybe not the best move form Football16.

    However if torture was SO effective, why on earth the most powerful army in the world (using torture as a way to get information) was NOT able in 7 years to get a decent lead to Ben Laden? it begs the question of HOW effective Torture is.

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by climber07:
    Oh I am so so sorry....I didn't realize that you saw it on a TV program! You're right, it MUST be true! How stupid of me!

    I believe not so long ago C-SPAN also featured a panel of "experts" who presented to the National Press Club in Washington..what they called...the "Disclosure Project." Sworn affidavits of pilots and former government worker who say they have been secretly working for the US government on covering up UFO phenomenon and observed alien technology. So I guess if we must go by C-SPAN...let me be the first to say "WELCOME TO OUR ALIEN OVERLORDS!"
    How is the place the CIA agent makes the comment differ from the substance of his point? If you don't like my view on it fine, but to use the fact that this was aired on C-SPAN where they showed some UFO program to refute the statement is a bit weak!!!!!

    And how was I attacking you in the first place? How did you become the victim in my earlier post???

    It is funny how the internet works like that. Some guy uses what you just did to shut down debate of points they don't like but makes no actual point on the topic than to discredit a poster. It is also usually the first step in a gang bang of those sorts of posts to eventually shut up the posters you disagree with. Nice move Climber.
    Last edited by Football16; 30-11-2008 at 12:25 PM.

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