Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

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  1. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeier:
    crime and terrorism are similar.
    tell me, what is the difference between terrorism and kidnapping ? the effect and at most time, motives are the same. the only difference is one is hugely blown up by media the other is just considered a pettycrime on the local level.

    In principle, I don't disagree that crime and terrorism are similar though terrorism has political motives whereas regular crimes are usually rooted in the usual sins of passion, greed etc.... Terrorism is a form of crime and therefore should treated according to its statistical importance. If it's not a serious problem, you don't devote a dispropotionate amount of resources towards it.

    How much sense does it make to ban water on airplanes and allow all kind of weapons all over the place in the streets?

    Politicians in the US had their war on crime, then a war on drugs and now a war on terrorism... The issue of the day and it allows them to furhter their own political agendas.

    Some talk about armchair intellectuals blah blah blah and give the examples of soldiers on the ground, how they feel etc...

    Well how about the innocent that are being tortured or held against their will without any kind of due process? The thousands of people that have been profiled and severely inconevenienced if not injured. The ones that get put to death and are innocent?

    That's too bad... just the price to pay for being safe...yup it's nice to be an armchair intellectual... The knife cuts both ways

  2. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    It is very easy, as has been demonstrated here, to come out with comments such as 'torture them, string them up, execute, etc etc' and then make other comments that people who actually offer some perspective on these views that they 'don't live in the real world'. Well I hate to break it to you, but the real world is, whether you like it or not, subject to laws, domestic and international - so to state that reference to this is somesort of fantasy of the 'armchair intellectuals' is quite laughable.

    If you think that laws are abused now, which of course they are, just take a moment to imagine what it would be like if everybody took the attitude towards them that has been displayed in the comments of some posters here or if they were not in place at all.
    At the beginning of this thread I asked the question that if you had intelligence that the Mumbai attack was going to happen before it happened and you had someone suspected of involvement in custody what would you do? You and other people answered words to the affect that you would 'ask them for information' or you would 'question them hard' but you would not resort to any form of torture (mental or otherwise) and you have continuously denied that torture might be appropriate on occasions. So in your world you are more concerned about the rights of one person already suspected of being a terrorist over the lives of hundreds of completely innocent bystanders. This is demented.

    You're insistance that the law will find a way to punish them shows you live in a fairytale.

  3. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    At the beginning of this thread I asked the question that if you had intelligence that the Mumbai attack was going to happen before it happened and you had someone suspected of involvement in custody what would you do? You and other people answered words to the affect that you would 'ask them for information' or you would 'question them hard' but you would not resort to any form of torture (mental or otherwise) and you have continuously denied that torture might be appropriate on occasions. So in your world you are more concerned about the rights of one person already suspected of being a terrorist over the lives of hundreds of completely innocent bystanders. This is demented.

    You're insistance that the law will find a way to punish them shows you live in a fairytale.

    You have, not for the first time, completely missed the point. You are reading what you want to see, not what I am actually saying. Stating and applying (to a small extent) the law in regard to torture, is not living in a fairytale - by definition fairytales are works of fiction - as far as I am aware, Hans Christian Andersen did not write the Geneva Convention...correct me if I am wrong.

  4. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    At the beginning of this thread I asked the question that if you had intelligence that the Mumbai attack was going to happen before it happened and you had someone suspected of involvement in custody what would you do? .

    What if what if what if...that is very much fairy tale like to me.

    Fact: they did not know about it. No need to ask what if we knew this or that

    Fact: we know Bin Laden engineer the 9/11 massacre
    Fact: we know the US used amongst other thing torture to capture him
    Fact: so far bin Laden is drinking tea with his colleagues while we are debatting.

  5. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Fact: we know Bin Laden engineer the 9/11 massacre
    Really? (Simplifying slightly) We have a video of someone looking like him claiming to have done so. Does that make it a fact? There may well be lots of secret evidence out there, but from what I have seen it is perfectly plausible that he may just be a front for some other people who we have never heard of who are actually running the show. (In the same way that George W Bush is clearly a front for the people who are really running the USA - Bush himself clearly doesn't have the intellectual capability to do that)

  6. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    At the beginning of this thread I asked the question that if you had intelligence that the Mumbai attack was going to happen before it happened and you had someone suspected of involvement in custody what would you do? You and other people answered words to the affect that you would 'ask them for information' or you would 'question them hard' but you would not resort to any form of torture (mental or otherwise) and you have continuously denied that torture might be appropriate on occasions. So in your world you are more concerned about the rights of one person already suspected of being a terrorist over the lives of hundreds of completely innocent bystanders. This is demented.

    You're insistance that the law will find a way to punish them shows you live in a fairytale.
    The key words here are suspected, I guess you've never heard of innocent until proven guilty. You talk about being an armchair intellectual..What if you were the suspect and you happened to be innocent. How would you like to be tortured to get information you don't have because your cousin was seen at a mosque where terrorists gather?

    Oh let me guess, only if you have irrefutable proof? And that the proff is irrefutable will be decided by??? Sergeant Singh? These are real world questions that have to be dealt with. Easy to say torture the guilty...you have to decide on a process to determine the guilty and the degree of guilt. If your sister was caught and you might know her whereabouts...does that constitute enough to torture? Where do you draw the line?

    The reality is that it's not simple either way... Yes we all would want to make sure that terrorist attacks can be prevented. At the same time, some of us still want to live in a place where rights and liberties are important and we are prepared to put up with a degree of risk for that as opposed to taking the chance of torturing and convicting/killing innocent people.

    No one lives in a fairy tale world, it's about what you value. You want to live in a police state because you think you will be less afraid. Many of us think that's unnecessary considering the threat at hand.

  7. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    Really? (Simplifying slightly) We have a video of someone looking like him claiming to have done so. Does that make it a fact? There may well be lots of secret evidence out there, but from what I have seen it is perfectly plausible that he may just be a front for some other people who we have never heard of who are actually running the show. (In the same way that George W Bush is clearly a front for the people who are really running the USA - Bush himself clearly doesn't have the intellectual capability to do that)
    OK granted, Bin laden and his entourage if you prefer.

  8. #238

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    Yes - but people like aussiegal would quite happily kill Bin Laden without any due process where it is perfectly possible (on the basis of information currently public) that on every video in which we have seen him there is someone else just off camera pointing a gun at him telling him what to say or do.

    Last edited by PDLM; 01-12-2008 at 02:07 PM.

  9. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    What if what if what if...that is very much fairy tale like to me.

    Fact: they did not know about it. No need to ask what if we knew this or that

    Fact: we know Bin Laden engineer the 9/11 massacre
    Fact: we know the US used amongst other thing torture to capture him
    Fact: so far bin Laden is drinking tea with his colleagues while we are debatting.
    Fact: They had been warned about the attack 2-3 months ago. They have been told to keep an eye on the boats as well as big hotels. Which they did, but 2-3 months is a long time to sustain the high level of security and ppl got lax thinking just one of those scares.

  10. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses:
    Fact: They had been warned about the attack 2-3 months ago. They have been told to keep an eye on the boats as well as big hotels. Which they did, but 2-3 months is a long time to sustain the high level of security and ppl got lax thinking just one of those scares.
    So? They failed, what more do you want me to say?

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