Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

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  1. #251
    fm7
    Quote Originally Posted by freeier:

    the fact is, nobody here in this forum wld have any idea the actual effectiveness of those means because all we have are what is shown on CNN and BBC.
    what, exactly, are you saying here? I know people who have been tortured and people who have done the torturing. I can't be the only one who reads this forum with that kind of exposure. maybe some people posting here live in a bubble, but from what I've read over time, it's pretty clear many don't.

    there's a reason why so many experts question the effectiveness of torture and sure doesn't have anything to do with making it easier for terrorists to do their work. there's also a large number of reasons why our forebears, in a time when everyday reality was more harsh and the prospect of going to war was greater for the average citizen, decided to enact laws about torture and the treatment of prisoners.

    it's a nice ploy to accuse people of armchair punditry and media-dependence, because then we don't have to actually consider their point of view. sarcasm aside, it brings the whole level of discussion down, because when points of view are not taken seriously we just descend into name-calling and abuse.

    which is why laws against torture are so important - we humans are so easily tempted to race to the bottom. the line from torture as a pragmatic tool to torture as a weapon of social conditioning, or torture as a punishment for its own sake is not just theoretical; it's a historically proven fact.

  2. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    Hull, I'm not saying that criminals should be tortured. I'm pointing out that so many people insist here that if we just follow the rules of law, abide by the geneva convention etc everything will work out fine. Until you have all parties involved playing by the same rules (something that will never happen) it's just a ludicrous thought.

    You don't feed a lion peanuts, you don't reason with a terrorist.
    I don't think anyone is saying it will work out fine if we stick to the Geneva Convention. It won't, it will be bad. If we don't though it will be as bad or even worse. That's the choice we really have - bad or worse. If anyone (including GWB) claims they can win this then they are talking out of their posteriors.

    On your last point, I go back to N. Ireland. That is exactly what they did and it seems to have worked. (The reasoning, not the peanuts - if the rumours are true we fed them the contents of a well stocked bank which was made to look like a bank robbery. Just as well it didn't happen now, the bank would have been empty).

  3. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    Hull, I'm not saying that criminals should be tortured. I'm pointing out that so many people insist here that if we just follow the rules of law, abide by the geneva convention etc everything will work out fine. Until you have all parties involved playing by the same rules (something that will never happen) it's just a ludicrous thought.

    Danielandhayley, I'm glad the Bali bombers were executed. They would be considered martyrs by their followers whether they were left to rot in jail or executed. These people use religion as an excuse to kill when no religion says it is ok to kill innocent people. They are violent, murderous types looking for a reason to justify their blood lust.

    Again, we need to focus on education and where that doesn't work, punishment should be meted out to fit the crime. No systems are perfect, that's the very nature of having a world run by humans so we do the best we can with what we have. You don't feed a lion peanuts, you don't reason with a terrorist.

    I am struggling to keep up with your reasoning here...you agree with the execution of the Bali bombers, which was carried out in accordance with the law of that country, however you continually state that I am living in a fairytale for making reference to the law in anyway...

  4. #254

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    Wow... like Hull & others have said - these thoughts and personal points of views - whether in accord OR discord - are connected in their search for meaning.

    Yes, arguments - on the face of it, BUT also a refusal to simply resign with "What's the point?", and to give in to a non-thinking "Whatever".

    Glad that the questions and "arguments" continue, even though the "solutions" - seemingly nowhere in sight.

    Last edited by emmie; 01-12-2008 at 03:47 PM.

  5. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Fiction is 24.. and some obvisouly seem to spend a little be too much time in front of their TV....

    Killing them (we have been doing it for a while now) seems not to be working (else why did it happen in Mumbai once again)

    Torturing them seems not to been working too, since we can't capture the leaders/organizers

    Time to maybe think about another way. Not saying I know which other way, just saying blindly claiming:
    "we should torture them to get information or we should kill the bastards who did it" seems not to be the right solution.

    On the other hand we have the Iranien President who sent (for the first time) his congratulations to Obama for his election. The cynic will say it is a strategy to better fuck him later. Well maybe...

    But it can also be a new way of handling very sensitive situations and maybe reduce terrorist attacks -we shall see
    Well they are not getting killed in India atleast!! Few years back they attacked Parliament, and even though the supreme court gave Afzal Guru death penalty, he's still alive, bcos of some 500 idiots sitting in that very parliament.

  6. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmie:
    Wow... like Hull & others have said - these thoughts and personal points of views - whether in accord OR discord - are connected in their search for meaning.

    Yes, arguments - on the face of it, BUT also a refusal to simply resign with "What's the point?", and to give in to a non-thinking "Whatever".

    Glad that the questions and "arguments" continue, even though the "solutions" - seemingly nowhere in sight.
    Well the solution, as has been said before, seems to be education and the reduction of poverty. What seems to be the common trigger for most terrorists is the feeling of being oppressed and powerless through normal routes (of the top of my head I can't think of one group where this was not the main factor). Piling on the pressure just increases this feeling so increases recruitment. The trouble is that the validity of this motivation is not obvious all the time to the rest of us, for example The Red Brigades of Italy and the Bader-Meinhof gangs in Germany - were the people really that oppressed? However the IRA in Ireland, NPA and MILF in Philippines, the various factions among the Palestinians, Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Taliban in Afghanistan - agree with them or not you can see the root causes of them all.

    So what is needed is more political than military in the long run. What we do in the short term is of course the topic of debate.
    Last edited by hullexile; 01-12-2008 at 04:07 PM.

  7. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses:
    Well they are not getting killed in India atleast!! Few years back they attacked Parliament, and even though the supreme court gave Afzal Guru death penalty, he's still alive, bcos of some 500 idiots sitting in that very parliament.
    Hmm. Well on the basis of a quick bit of Googling, I haven't found what I would consider as "irrefutable evidence" that Afzal Guru is guilty as charged.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006.../india.kashmir

    Could you point me at something more irrefutable?
    Last edited by PDLM; 01-12-2008 at 04:22 PM.

  8. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    However the IRA in Ireland, NPA and MILF in Philippines, the various factions among the Palestinians, Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Taliban in Afghanistan - agree with them or not you can see the root causes of them all.

    So what is needed is more political than military in the long run. What we do in the short term is of course the topic of debate.
    Yes.

    Guess I was recalling, decades ago, when a good Irish friend was accidentally caught up amidst the troubles. Dark times.
    Last edited by emmie; 01-12-2008 at 04:37 PM.

  9. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    Hmm. Well on the basis of a quick bit of Googling, I haven't found what I would consider as "irrefutable evidence" that Afzal Guru is guilty as charged.

    Mohammad Afzal is due to hang for his part in the 2001 attack on India's parliament building. But was he only a bit player? And is the country trying to bury embarrassing questions about its war on terror? By Arundhati Roy | World news | The Guardian

    Could you point me at something more irrefutable?
    PDLM don't tell me you are one of those pseudo intellects who believe what Madame Arundhati Roy says.

  10. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses:
    PDLM don't tell me you are one of those pseudo intellects who believe what Madame Arundhati Roy says.
    "In its judgment on August 5 2005, the supreme court admitted that the evidence against Afzal was only circumstantial, and that there was no evidence that he belonged to any terrorist group or organisation. But it went on to endorse what can only be described as lynch law. "The incident, which resulted in heavy casualties, had shaken the entire nation," it said, "and the collective conscience of the society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender."

    That paragraph is worrying. Sort of thing that in years to come leads to evidence that they were actually innocent.
    Last edited by hullexile; 01-12-2008 at 04:41 PM.

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