Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

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  1. #361

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    That implies that if it weren't for the military we wouldn't have those things... That's highly doubtful, if not the military then someone else would have come up with it. If there's a dollar to be made, it'll come out and there has been plenty of innovations/inventions outside of the military.

    As to say what you mean and mean what you say... All one has to do is write it properly...


  2. #362

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    So Danielandhayley, following your logic in earlier posts you would agree with the way this was handled. Innocent victim's shooting 'not unlawful' | World Breaking News | News.com.au

    I on the other hand would have moved for apprehension and interrogation at which point it would undoubtedly have come to light that the guy was not a terrorist. He might have gotten beat up a little protesting his innocence (though unlikely as talking would have assertained who he was) but he wouldn't be dead.


  3. #363

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    They obviously had irrefutable proof he was a terrorist! That's what happens when you cultivate fear...

    But hey, I guess some of you real world people don't mind too much if the odd innocent gets shot as long as you're sitting in your armchair figuring out how to stay safe...


  4. #364

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    That implies that if it weren't for the military we wouldn't have those things... That's highly doubtful, if not the military then someone else would have come up with it. If there's a dollar to be made, it'll come out and there has been plenty of innovations/inventions outside of the military.

    As to say what you mean and mean what you say... All one has to do is write it properly...
    Wow, I must have really hit a nerve there gilles .

    I'm sorry, as I clearly underestimated your ability to follow from point A to point B. Next time I will draw you a picture.

    A trained soldier is a tool of War (designed for among other things, to kill).

    Margarine (1869 Napoleon III of France offered a prize to anyone who could make a satisfactory substitute for butter, suitable for use by the armed forces), Food preservatives, Medical use of Penicillin ....all designed to keep that Tool of Death operating for longer, and at better efficiency.

    Internet (as you said was put together for communication during nuclear engagement). What communication do you think it was designed for? Hallmark Cards perhaps? The though process was of continued targeting and engagement of enemy.

    In the nuclear war, the second strike capability is key for nuclear war deterrence and Internet was one of the tools that provided it.


    Perhaps you could do me a favor and edit grammar and spelling on all my on-line posts going forward? You seem to be really good at those fine details.....like spotting that fly in the room but completely missing the elephant.

  5. #365

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    So after several days arguing and many pages of posts, to summarise:

    Armchair interrogators: the ends justify the means and therefore given the horrific nature of terrorist attacks any means, fair or foul, should be used to protect the population by gathering vital information. Torture works whatever you think about it.

    Armchair intellectuals:
    The ends do not justify any foul means. Terrorism is not that significant in terms of deaths in the world and resorting to illegal activities just lowers us to their level and is counter-productive by increasing the support for terrorists and by providing dubious intelligence anyway. Torture does not work and is wrong even if it did.

    Did I miss anything significant?

    I've skipped the battlefield stuff and who invented what because I can't really see the point.

    Last edited by hullexile; 02-12-2008 at 10:01 PM.

  6. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    They obviously had irrefutable proof he was a terrorist! That's what happens when you cultivate fear...

    But hey, I guess some of you real world people don't mind too much if the odd innocent gets shot as long as you're sitting in your armchair figuring out how to stay safe...
    Gilles is having trouble keeping up tonight.

    Danielandhayley (someone you, Gilles, have been holding hands with all day) was the one arguing that in the heat of the moment a woman holding a package could justifiably be shot. D and H is the same person who is against torture... Hmm.

  7. #367

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    Quote Originally Posted by climber07:
    A trained soldier is a tool of War (designed for among other things, to kill).
    Hey Genghis, you probably also read a little too much Sun Tzu... I think you'd fit right in with the fundamentalist islamic brigades...

    The UN troops might have a different perspective than you have... thank goodness for that! Now it would be interesting to have as statistics how many soldiers in this 21st century that have actually gone to war.

    It seems to me that soldiers and an army are an excellent tool for peace, maintaining order in times of difficulties and defending a homeland but what can I say, I guess I'm just not the conquering bloodthirsty type.

  8. #368

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    OK name calling is in order it seems.

    Hull you seems to have more or less summarize the situation.

    I won't even point to the fact that in 37 pages, the armchair interrogators were not able to come with one substantial evidence of torture leading to an arrest and / or defeating a terrorist plot.

    Blame it on the US gvt if you want but without irrefutable proof or tangible example, how can one advocate the effectiveness of such action?


  9. #369

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    Gilles is having trouble keeping up tonight.

    Danielandhayley (someone you, Gilles, have been holding hands with all day)
    I guess like Bush, you think that there are sides to pick and if you're not with us, you must be against us. I on the other hand think that each person is entitled to his/her opinion and I don't have to support or be against someone because we agree/disagree on something.

    We could have 5 000 000 pages of this discussion and it wouldn't begin to solve any problems nor would we ever come close to an agreement.

    Although many people like to quote facts, the matter is that all is clouded by values and emotions and posters here obviously have very different values and feelings related to this issue.

    It's akin to trying to convert islamic fundamentalist to christian values, it won't and doesn't work and it doesn't mean that one is superior to the other...

    I will let that be my last entry in this thread...(hold all the applause and boohs) enough is enough...ma'a salama
    Last edited by gilleshk; 03-12-2008 at 08:27 AM.

  10. #370

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    I guess like Bush, you think that there are sides to pick and if you're not with us, you must be against us. I on the other hand think that each person is entitled to his/her opinion and I don't have to support or be against someone because we agree/disagree on something.
    No, you accused the wrong people of thinking that what happened to the Brazilian ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    We could have 5 000 000 pages of this discussion and it wouldn't begin to solve any problems nor would we ever come close to an agreement.

    Although many people like to quote facts, the matter is that all is clouded by values and emotions and posters here obviously have very different values and feelings related to this issue.

    It's akin to trying to convert islamic fundamentalist to christian values, it won't and doesn't work and it doesn't mean that one is superior to the other...

    I will let that be my last entry in this thread...(hold all the applause and boohs) enough is enough...ma'a salama
    This is the first thing you have said that I agree with.

    I'm off too. This is definitely not a subject we will reach any consensus on.

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