>>>Israel as an example?
Ok, maybe you didn't but you did comment on it, and for which I am giving you a reply based on your comment.
>>>Imply terrorism as a basis of the problem
again...see above answer.
>>> torture has done nothing to solve the problem?
Maybe not, but it did eliminate a few of their more serious threats.
>>> Simon Cowell?
Dude,...can't help you there....
Well I only used Israel as reply to the person who bought it into the equation...and which ever way you look at it there was no implication by myslef that terrorism was the cause of the problem...
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03-12-2008, 03:02 PM #391
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03-12-2008, 03:07 PM #392
LOL. Ad hominem. Um I think you missed the bit about the death rates in Israel post suspension of widespread torture. Factual enough? And which side of this argument came up with "fairy tale land" and "armchair intellectuals"?
So you have had training - but not actually done it? So you have family (past and present) who were/are in the business of intelligence but you are not yourself? Not sure what that proves except that you seem to be emotionally tied to the dream of super powerful intelligence services. If the highly respected people I listed do not make my case valid or true then I fail to see how your training and assorted relatives do?
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03-12-2008, 03:11 PM #393
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03-12-2008, 03:23 PM #394
I have never "appealed to them" for proof in any of my arguments. The only reason I even mentioned it in the last post was to show that any "appeal to authority" is weak reasoning and bares no relevance to the topic of discussion. I have also never offered "proof" of the effectiveness of torture (which I believe was the initial discussion of this thread...not it's philosophical or ethical applications).
"Proof" will not be available unless a full blown scientific study is performed on this subject. Although I doubt you would get many volunteers for this study. The information that is available however (compiled during wars, conflicts and various regimes) , has a lot of stigma attached to it and people have a hard time getting past the emotional/ethical barriers to give it any consideration.
All I've stated in arguments is that there is a great deal of data throughout history which shows that interrogation (or "enhanced interrogation") is indeed effective at obtaining certain kinds of information.
The moral aspects of it I leave to clergy, philosophers and politicians.
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03-12-2008, 03:25 PM #395
hear hear. I think I summarised the arguments succinctly a while ago and we are just going round in circles. You know when it is time to halt when people starting lobbing latin into the arguments
I think that all that needs to be said has been said to be honest. All this from a (probably throw away) one liner from Climber
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03-12-2008, 03:27 PM #396
Yep, time to stick a fork in this thread...it's done.hear hear. I think I summarised the arguments succinctly a while ago and we are just going round in circles. You know when it is time to halt when people starting lobbing latin into the arguments
I think that all that needs to be said has been said to be honest. All this from a (probably throw away) one liner from Climber
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03-12-2008, 03:37 PM #397
KIA just close this thread as it has gone from where to where.
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03-12-2008, 04:39 PM #398
My two cents on the Israeli/Palestinian situation: it’s a disaster. Imo, it must be understood why both sides employ the methods they use against each other and no one side’s argument is more valid than the other.
On the Palestinian side, they feel the injustice of being, in their view, politically and economically oppressed, which creates a huge pool of discontent. Being militarily overmatched, they channel their rage through “suicide bombers” to inflict maximum pain on their “enemies”, and to that end, they are successful, so they keep using it.
But from our perspective, we all know that suicide bombings will NEVER solve the problem because each incident simply reinforces our outrage at the random killing of innocents.
On the Israeli side, the suicide bombings strikes fear and insecurity. Moreover, Israelis are surrounded by “enemies” on all sides, some of whom openly call for their destruction. And with memories of the Holocaust, it’s understandable that they use a hard line stance (of which torture is part of the larger package) to defend themselves. So they clamp down hard on the Palestinians, and yes, many a terrorist threat is avoided.
But then, from the Palestinian perspective, Israeli actions undeniably create despair and hopelessness and a desire to lash out, and so many young people are willing to die for what’s left of their country. To them, suicide bombing is an honourable cause to defend their country. To them, Israeli actions will NEVER subjugate them, and therefore never solve the problem.
Imo, the hardline stance on both sides will never work but simply reinforces the status quo. All it takes is for one side to unilaterally recognise this iron cast law, stand up and acknowledge the pain of the other side, and put an end to their own wrong course of action…in effect be the bigger man (or country). Over time, the other side cannot possibly unilaterally have cause to carry on its own course of action. Like what Gandhi did, the world will instinctively recognise the right course of action when it has been put into practise and the aggressor will gradually become isolated in the world.
The lesson is: in the larger context, violence never works, because it divides and reinforces that division in an endless loop of revenge. That’s why there are wars and civil wars of every kind after thousands of years of life on earth. There is conflict in the world because the conflict lives in the individual, you and me, multiplied 6.7 billion times. When the aggressor in me dies, that’s my contribution to peace in the world.
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03-12-2008, 04:47 PM #399
Last edited by freeier; 03-12-2008 at 05:07 PM.
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03-12-2008, 04:55 PM #400
well, someone wanted an example so an empirical example is quoted.
whether its right or not, nobody knows.
but we also know that india probably never torture any caught suspected terrorist and their country has been hit badly by a well planned attack..
so its up to whoever that asked for it in the first place to come in and put his worth of why its not working ?
israelis started targeting hamas on assassination attempts in the last few years. plus the building of the wall to segregate the country probably help them cut down the number of death.
its a war that lasted through the last 2 thousand years. nothing will stop it. but having a systematic process to protect the people is what they are trying to achieve.. and I don't think you can say they are a total failure..
and isn't the 'retired general' objections exactly what is being seen here.
there armchair human rightists, or for that matter, people who have no need to do the dirty, decides to be nice and start shouting about human rights. where their successors on the ground are still continuing the processes because on the ground that could be the most successful and effective means...Last edited by freeier; 03-12-2008 at 05:06 PM.
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