Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    I don't really see the difference between a group of people employed by a government agency judging someone on the evidence in front of them and deciding on a course of action and letting a panel of often uneducated people deciding the fate of someone in a court of law. The former is often better as it can help prevent a crime whereas the latter is about meting out a punishment.
    So you would just get rid of the jury system altogether then? Just let some faceless bureaucrat decide who is guilty of any accusation?

    And in very few systems is the jury responsible for determining punishment. In nearly all cases that is the judge. The jury determines guilt.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiegal:
    Does this mean you speak loudly? How does one question someone hard?

    "You do not use torture. If he is innocent then the state is just as bad as the terrorists. What do terrorists do? They kill and terrorise innocent people hence their name"

    I just have to disagree. Your argument assumes that intelligence is wrong and this far from often the case. I will back my country to torture someone suspected of being involved in a terrorist attack if it saves lives. Being suspected of something, to me means having some sort of evidence, not just that the person smells bad or looks bad. I don't really see the difference between a group of people employed by a government agency judging someone on the evidence in front of them and deciding on a course of action and letting a panel of often uneducated people deciding the fate of someone in a court of law. The former is often better as it can help prevent a crime whereas the latter is about meting out a punishment.

    I don't like even having these thoughts but I believe I am a realist living in an imperfect and oftentimes dangerous world.
    Because it is a violation of human rights and it is by no means guaranteed to be effective in obtaining the truth - any 'evidence' obtained under torture can never be held to be credible due to the manner in which it has been obtainied.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    So you would just get rid of the jury system altogether then? Just let some faceless bureaucrat decide who is guilty of any accusation?

    And in very few systems is the jury responsible for determining punishment. In nearly all cases that is the judge. The jury determines guilt.
    Correct. The jury is the tribunal of fact, the judge is tribunal of law...

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by pin:
    i see that no-one cares for the innocent indians that died yesterday, but are more worried about how the USA is perceived.
    Far from it. Personally I am capable of two emotions at the same time.

    As I understand it, it wasn't just Indians who were killed.

  5. #65

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    it is still not over, they are holding hostages still at the Taj and Oberoi Hotels including Foreigners


  6. #66

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    Nobody wants to stand up and say they support violence. But neither should we hamstring up our police and intelligence networks so tightly with red tape in the name of non-violence that they cannot do their jobs.

    Without teeth, nobody is going to gain respect. Look at the example of Mossad - those guys are terrifying - I reckon with that reputation some of the younger and naiver terrorists would wet their pants and spill the beans soon as rather than get tortured by them.

    On the other hand, every time a liberal lefty in the US, UK or Australia waves a flag and says "no torture" the terrorists laugh and know they are winning.

    I agree with much of what Aussiegal has said (and not that much of what Climber said to be honest!) - torture (ideally using chemicals to make people tell the truth rather than just bashing them if at all possible) to get information is a reality of life.

    At the same time, we should be treating the causes of terrorism - religion and religious extremism; poverty and displacement; the image the west portrayed in some of these countries by media and politicians and so on.

    Obviously you try to be the "better person". But I'd like to think that the police and intelligence services are doing their absolute best to track down, gain evidence but yes, in extreme cases take other measures, if it means the innocent of all races do not suffer.

    Last edited by MovingIn07; 27-11-2008 at 12:36 PM.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    Well that's the US (and many other) armed forces then.
    Hence my earlier statement about WARS being idiotic.

    It's funny how selective reading of my posts have not only turned my personal opinion into a poster-child for Uncle Sam, but also highlights the glowing hatred of US in general. I personally don't care...just find it humorous.

    I also find it rather sad, that nationals of such great leaders as Churchill, are sounding more and more like Chamberlain these days.....Nothing good has ever come from appeasement.

    Contrary to what many here may think, I am not a warmonger. Quite the opposite in fact. But the reality we live in present us with the situation where civilians are NOT safe. Several groups more than others are causing this to happen. My opinions may be extreme and harsh, but they propose a solution. Is it the only solution? I don't know. But besides criticism I have not heard any other solutions proposed......

    How do you solve the problem of terror? As I said time and time again.....ultimately it is solved through economic prosperity, and MOST IMPORTANTLY education and LIBERATION OF FREE THOUGHT (held hostage by extremist religious clerics). However, those solutions are all Long-Term.

    In the short-term the only way to go after those who are responsible are with extreme measures and public examples of punishment. Showing the terrorists that "we're better then them by locking him up in prison" is a completely silly assumption. Why? Because you assume that a terrorist is a rational person. By their very nature they are irrational, and will only see this "humanity" as a symbol of weakness and fear.

    hullexile, I completely understand that you believe torture is ineffective way of getting information. I respectfully disagree. You are assuming that torture is purely physical. That is not always the case. Every being, including Bin Laden, has a breaking point. Be it physical pain / discomfort, pets, friends, family, children, spouse, religion, prophet, holy books......trust me, something will strike a nerve....when it does, the information will be forthcoming.

    I am done with this pointless and time-wasting banter.

    Thoughts and Prayers to the victims and families of today's attacks. May your suffering not be in vain...

  8. #68

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    No one would torture an innocent person right?

    I will assume that even the people in favour (to any extent) of tortue, wouldn't do so. Therefore, you can only be in favour of torture if that person is guilty...now bearing in mind that all people are innocent until proven guilty, to reach the stage whereby somebody 'deserves torture' then, in order to avoid torturing an innocent person, there must already other substantial evidence that has led, or will lead, to the establishment of guilt...in which case there is no need for torture as the guilt has already been established...


  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Nobody wants to stand up and say they support violence. But neither should we hamstring up our police and intelligence networks so tightly with red tape in the name of non-violence that they cannot do their jobs.

    Without teeth, nobody is going to gain respect. Look at the example of Mossad - those guys are terrifying - I reckon with that reputation some of the younger and naiver terrorists would wet their pants and spill the beans soon as rather than get tortured by them.

    On the other hand, every time a liberal lefty in the US, UK or Australia waves a flag and says "no torture" the terrorists laugh and know they are winning.

    I agree with much of what Aussiegal has said (and not that much of what Climber said to be honest!) - torture (ideally using chemicals to make people tell the truth rather than just bashing them if at all possible) to get information is a reality of life.

    At the same time, we should be treating the causes of terrorism - religion and religious extremism; poverty and displacement; the image the west portrayed in some of these countries by media and politicians and so on.

    Obviously you try to be the "better person". But I'd like to think that the police and intelligence services are doing their absolute best to track down, gain evidence but yes, in extreme cases take other measures, if it means the innocent of all races do not suffer.
    Couldn't agree more..

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Obviously you try to be the "better person". But I'd like to think that the police and intelligence services are doing their absolute best to track down, gain evidence but yes, in extreme cases take other measures, if it means the innocent of all races do not suffer.
    This is fine if they got things right 100% of the time. They don't and as a result the innocent suffer at the hands of the very people who are supposed to be protecting them - the state. Jean Charles De Menzes is just one example.

    As has already been pointed out by other posters - the war against terror, or any other 'special measures' etc don't exactly seem to be working do they?....

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