Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Nobody wants to stand up and say they support violence. But neither should we hamstring up our police and intelligence networks so tightly with red tape in the name of non-violence that they cannot do their jobs.

    Without teeth, nobody is going to gain respect. Look at the example of Mossad - those guys are terrifying - I reckon with that reputation some of the younger and naiver terrorists would wet their pants and spill the beans soon as rather than get tortured by them.

    On the other hand, every time a liberal lefty in the US, UK or Australia waves a flag and says "no torture" the terrorists laugh and know they are winning.

    I agree with much of what Aussiegal has said (and not that much of what Climber said to be honest!) - torture (ideally using chemicals to make people tell the truth rather than just bashing them if at all possible) to get information is a reality of life.

    At the same time, we should be treating the causes of terrorism - religion and religious extremism; poverty and displacement; the image the west portrayed in some of these countries by media and politicians and so on.

    Obviously you try to be the "better person". But I'd like to think that the police and intelligence services are doing their absolute best to track down, gain evidence but yes, in extreme cases take other measures, if it means the innocent of all races do not suffer.
    given that you usually honour very subtle differences I'm surprised that you confuse no torture with non-violence. You can very well have violent counteraction (your example, although I really don't wanna introduce Israels politics in this thread, the Mossad, does so by eliminating terrorists _which the cannot get hold off_ very efficiently) without abusing or nullifying the human rights of people you've got hold off. Tell me - where or of what does the torture of captured people, innocent or not, actually protect us? And please no constructed example taken from 24.

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    , in order to avoid torturing an innocent person, there must already other substantial evidence that has led, or will lead, to the establishment of guilt...in which case there is no need for torture as the guilt has already been established...
    I am sorry, but that is a very silly statement. You don't torture someone to establish guilt! This is not Spanish Inquisition! You torture for INFORMATION.

    An the only reason even that is necessary is because the Intelligence Agencies (from CIA to Mossad) have proven to be impotent in the post-cold war environment. Government's reliance on technology and elimination of funding to support black-ops and continued purchase of human assets have caused this cluster-fuck we have now.

  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    Apart from the obvious humanitarian reasons why torture in any form is unacceptable, it is well proven to be unreliable and thus ineffective in obtaining information as the subject will say anything, including 'confessing' to acts of which he or she has never committed in order to stop the torture.

    The sooner the US starts complying with the Geneva Convention the better...
    I watched some show on C-SPAN with CIA guys who said the same thing as you are saying - with the exception of the last point about respecting the Geneva Convention. Hey, the US refuses to acknowledge the jurisdiction of the World Criminal Court nor respect treaties which helps fuel terrorism and hatred.

    It is sad that some groups fight for their cause by terror and indiscriminate killing. The good news is that they have killed and captured some of them. The fact that they have some alive speaks well of the chances to out any of their gang who have not been killed or caught.

  4. #74

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    It constantly surprises me what a small world this is.

    My colleagues friend was staying in the Taj but went for drinks in the Oberoi and was between the two when it all went down.
    I then get a text message from a good mate saying taht he and his wife stayed in the Oberoi the night before!


  5. #75

  6. #76

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    At the end of the day, there is no single answer to this. To say - "never torture" could easily mean the loss of additional innocent lives. To say "always torture" will result in innocents being tortured. This is the problem with arguing one side of the other of this debate. Both sides are right, at some time, for some situations.

    None of us, I hope, is actually close enough to this to be able to make definitive statements.

    So I cannot agree with anyone who says that we must never torture, because I think there will be situations where we must, to save lives.

    But I also cannot jump on any bandwagons that involve retribution or violence for violence sake.

    On balance, I'd rather err on the side of saving large numbers of innocent victims of terrorism and risk harming one or two innocent torture subjects than the reverse. And fund the services well enough to be in the best position to know the difference! And recognise they will make mistakes, as we all do. But at least they are operating for the good when they make mistakes, rather than the terrorists who are out to be evil.


  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by climber07:
    I am sorry, but that is a very silly statement. You don't torture someone to establish guilt! This is not Spanish Inquisition! You torture for INFORMATION.

    An the only reason even that is necessary is because the Intelligence Agencies (from CIA to Mossad) have proven to be impotent in the post-cold war environment. Government's reliance on technology and elimination of funding to support black-ops and continued purchase of human assets have caused this cluster-fuck we have now.
    So by your reasoning, the systematic torturing of people to obtain 'information' regardless of whether that person has done anything wrong or not, is perfectly acceptable?

    Quite frankly your ignorance and damn right arrogance astounds me.

  8. #78

    an eye for an eye and soon the world will be blind

    Om. Shanti.


  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:

    So I cannot agree with anyone who says that we must never torture, because I think there will be situations where we must, to save lives.

    .

    example?

    How can torture be effective enough to warrant it's use? Suppose the person being questioned doesn't have any information that the authorities seek, but they decide that he is lying and proceed to torture this person, obviously they have already decided that the person is lying - hence starting the torture - so are they only going to stop once the person makes something up that the authorities want to hear? - Supposing that they then act on this made up information, what would happen then? more innocent people being detained/tortured?

    Or, is there to be a standard period of torture that we must all endure when asked a question just 'to make sure' we are telling the truth?

  10. #80

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    Mumbai attacks reported live on Twitter, Flickr - web - Technology

    Wow this site shows photos on flickr already and lots of up to the minute stuff by amateurs - it is a small world in some ways.

    As to torture and other brutal means, let's just say that citizens say this until someone they know and love is a victim.

    If your nation engages in these activities then it seems to me if one of your folks is taken prisoner, the other nation will treat your captives in a similar manner.

    Killing in the name of peace and justice is like screwing for virginity.

    Hey, even the CIA experts say torture is proven to be unreliable and they should know.
    Last edited by Football16; 27-11-2008 at 01:50 PM.

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