Mumbai Terrorist Attacks

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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    example?

    How can torture be effective enough to warrant it's use? Suppose the person being questioned doesn't have any information that the authorities seek, but they decide that he is lying and proceed to torture this person, obviously they have already decided that the person is lying - hence starting the torture - so are they only going to stop once the person makes something up that the authorities want to hear? - Supposing that they then act on this made up information, what would happen then? more innocent people being detained/tortured?

    Or, is there to be a standard period of torture that we must all endure when asked a question just 'to make sure' we are telling the truth?
    I think statements like this assume that the police/security services are idiots. While it is possible that some are, I prefer to believe that they are just like the rest of us - trained to do their jobs and with some level of skill in the operation of that job.

    It's easy to take information about wrongful torture from the media and assume that it is all handled badly. I prefer to believe that there are plenty of individuals who are good at spotting liars, who do the work necessary to gain enough evidence (even if this is not 'court admissable' type evidence) to be pretty sure that the suspect really is a terrorist and then administers whatever procedure (and I'm sure they have a range) is necessary to get information.

    Of course, some people may be well skilled at withholding information under duress. But many of these terrorist appear to be poor, bored kids who have been indoctrinated by extremist religious types - I suspect they are not that hard to break down.

    I doubt very much whether effective use of torture is ever reported in the press. Since I doubt very much that the vast majority of the people who carry out these procedures enjoy it, they probably do it because it IS effective.

  2. #82

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    My statements on the ineffectiveness of torture were not from the media but from the CIA experts who were saying that torture is ineffective and should never be used!!!!!!

    The way you are placing your faith in the good intentions of the police/security amounts to accepting a police state to run the affairs of state. Some of us are old enough to recall even in Canada where victims of the state were mistreated at the hands of these very police/security people you would trust.

    I held a senior position in policing and I can tell you that I'd not trust that decision to any of them nor would any I know in a free society wish to embrace that sort of system.

    The sad act of terrorism produces anger and hostility but nations who wish to be free and democratic should fear what we have seen the USA engage under George Bush including Guatanamo and some dodgey techniques to get information.

    I worked with police officers from India who said how some villages would find a rapist - just round up the suspect and torture it out of them. You might want that but what if you were accidentally fingered for a crime you didn't commit and they tortured you or a loved one? You'd surely be pissed and not just say - oh well they had a job to do.

    Last edited by Football16; 27-11-2008 at 02:06 PM.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lammarite:
    It constantly surprises me what a small world this is.

    My colleagues friend was staying in the Taj but went for drinks in the Oberoi and was between the two when it all went down.
    I then get a text message from a good mate saying taht he and his wife stayed in the Oberoi the night before!
    My husband's 2 very good colleagues (one Dutch and one Aussie) were kept hostage in the Taj and were safely evacuated this morning. I cannot imagine being in that situation, I am happy they're safe.

  4. #84

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    Interrogation and torture are not the same thing...the bored extremists who are easy to break down, will break down under normal (legal) interrogation...

    Torture is not effective enough to justify it's use.


  5. #85

    Might be a tad late to join the discussion but I still want to say how sick to the stomach I was when I heard about it this morning - first thing that came on the telly. And rounding people up asking "who's got a UK / US passport"? F*cking hell...


  6. #86

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    Football: yes I agree that the police and intelligence services have shown themselves highly skilled at getting (and convicting) the wrong person several times when it comes to terrorism. I hope they have improved in the UK but I doubt it, this is from someone who was once held and (very ineptly) questioned at Paddington Green station - the anti-terrorism police base - I hasten to add I was of course innocent and was not tortured in any form (except listening to very stupid questions).

    On the other hand I can sort of see Moving's point. Perhaps this is sitting on the fence and does not really solve the argument but....

    I think the starting point should be that all forms of torture are inhumane, counter-productive and immoral. That should be the basis of any civilised country. Rules should be made and abided by. Where it becomes acceptable then you have a problem with that society as demonstrated by Climber's attitude. Given that as the starting point then perhaps in extreme individual cases some bending of the rules could be possible - but not as far as water-boarding for example. I can hear myself arguing against my own points - who decides what is an extreme case, who decides how far to bend the rules, etc.

    Wishy washy arguing I know but it is how I feel.

    Last edited by hullexile; 27-11-2008 at 02:21 PM.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotchDrinker:
    Might be a tad late to join the discussion but I still want to say how sick to the stomach I was when I heard about it this morning - first thing that came on the telly. And rounding people up asking "who's got a UK / US passport"? F*cking hell...
    Same.

    I have a (blonde hair, blue eyed female) friend in Bangalore today who was meant to fly into Mumbai this morning. She has buried her UK passport at the bottom of her bag - now carrying her Australian passport close - and holding up in the hotel trying to get a direct flight from Bangalore to Singapore tonight. Work trips are not fun at the best of times, but this is not what we sign up for.

    A sad day for India. Some of the reports coming out about what has happened/is happening are truely horrible.

  8. #88

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    I can only echo others' views, marked by their most troubling questions - BUT most of all, their sadness at the 101 lives lost, and the many more touched by this terrible news.

    Last edited by emmie; 27-11-2008 at 02:37 PM.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    So by your reasoning, the systematic torturing of people to obtain 'information' regardless of whether that person has done anything wrong or not, is perfectly acceptable?
    Please show me where exactly I said that?

  10. #90

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    um, here...

    Quote Originally Posted by climber07:
    I am sorry, but that is a very silly statement. You don't torture someone to establish guilt! This is not Spanish Inquisition! You torture for INFORMATION.

    An the only reason even that is necessary is because the Intelligence Agencies (from CIA to Mossad) have proven to be impotent in the post-cold war environment. Government's reliance on technology and elimination of funding to support black-ops and continued purchase of human assets have caused this cluster-fuck we have now.
    and here

    "Anyone still thinks water-boarding is a bad idea? "

    and here...

    "GENEVA Convention is for pussies..."

    oh yes and here...

    "In fact, WARS should have no rules....."

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