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Well Done, Finland !

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  1. #11

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    "But the Nordic nations as a whole, including a majority of their business elites, have arrived at a simple formula: Capitalism works better if employees get paid decent wages and are supported by high-quality, democratically accountable public services that enable everyone to live healthy, dignified lives and to enjoy real equality of opportunity for themselves and their children. For us, that has meant an increase in our personal freedoms and our political rights — not the other way around."
    How this city goes by everyday, looking the other way as elderly sweep our streets and collect cardboard is something I cannot understand. It's exactly that -- not giving all citizens, when wealth is prevalent, dignified lives. Life is cheap here.

    I hope this revolution DOES NOT STOP until all Hong Kong citizens can have a dignified life.
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimwy66
    There are many reasons why Scandinavian countries are consistently the happiest on the planet, the ignoring of stereotypical leadership wannabees seeking to ensure the status quo of the rich getting richer remains is probably one of them. And also I suspect it is the reason why they have excellent social policies, the lowest wealth gap, the lowest re-offending rate...and on and on. Why every other country hasn't already copied the Scandinavian model is a mystery.

    I know which picture makes me happy.



    Scandinavia have some of the highest wealth gaps in the world, on par with what you have in places such as South Africa. I cant find any good statistics on it now, but Denmark and Sweden at least are in the top 5 or so when measured on wealth inequality.

    There was an article on it in the economist as well a couple of weeks ago, see https://www.economist.com/briefing/2...singly-popular

    Income inequality in scandinavia is low though.

  3. #13

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    I think age of the candidate shouldn't be a criteria. Old people tend to think they know it all while having lived in a completely different era. The ability to listen to citizens and change based on their feedback should be one of the main criteria. Look at Carrie Lam, she's obviously deaf.

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  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by henkka
    Scandinavia have some of the highest wealth gaps in the world, on par with what you have in places such as South Africa. I cant find any good statistics on it now, but Denmark and Sweden at least are in the top 5 or so when measured on wealth inequality.

    There was an article on it in the economist as well a couple of weeks ago, see https://www.economist.com/briefing/2...singly-popular

    Income inequality in scandinavia is low though.
    I used the data sources rather than a journalist's interpretation on hand-picked statistics to fit a story slant. I looked at GINI index from the World Bank - where 0 = perfect equality and 100 indicates perfect inequality in income, and the OECD data set relating to wealth distribution. If you have the time to search around these data sets you will see a pattern that indicates Scandinavian countries doing better than other Western countries in creating a fairer society.

    https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social...on_7d7b803c-en

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...001&view=chart



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  5. #15

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    Fixed it for Hong Kong:

    "But most Hong Kong SAR politicians, selected by crony capitalists, have arrived at a simple formula: Capitalism works better if employees don't get paid decent wages and are supported by democratically unaccountable public services that forces everyone to live squalid, undignified lives with no real equality of opportunity for themselves and their children. For us, that has meant a gradual disappearance in our personal freedoms and our political rights — not the other way around."


    Quote Originally Posted by Mefisto
    Here are the Chairpersons of the parties in the coalition government... all elected representatives with popular mandate, not appointed by a single omnipotent sociopath to serve his dictatorial aims.




    Incidentally I just came across a well-written article in New York Times that juxtaposes the Nordic social democratic model with the increasing ruthlessness of the American "free market", but here in Hong Kong we can (or must) look at it from the viewpoint of corporatism in the service of totalitarian "socialism" (communist only in name, language and mentality).

    It's an interesting comparison; the Scandinavian countries are open and export driven economies with populations similar to Hong Kong's 7+ million. Kiwis might also find this interesting.


    "But the Nordic nations as a whole, including a majority of their business elites, have arrived at a simple formula: Capitalism works better if employees get paid decent wages and are supported by high-quality, democratically accountable public services that enable everyone to live healthy, dignified lives and to enjoy real equality of opportunity for themselves and their children. For us, that has meant an increase in our personal freedoms and our political rights — not the other way around."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/07/o...apitalism.html

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimwy66
    I looked at GINI index from the World Bank
    Aside from the already noted differences between income and wealth (flow vs. stock) there are other points that need to be understood.

    Raw GINI is a poor indicator of actual inequality experienced by people because it is taken *before* including things that we do to improve it. Social housing, free at the point of use education and healthcare, state pension payments, disability and out-of-work benefits and handouts, charity and so on need to be factored into people's wealth or income as these are things that are being done to redistribute from high tax payers to low or non-tax payers and fix the very issue being measured.

    Also, Scandanvian states have benefitted from people being left the fuck alone and when you do that you get equality of opportunity (a good thing) without trying to force equality of outcome (a bad thing).

    Whether the Scandanavian strong labour force, high tax, high spending model can survive an aging population and increased immigration will be an interesting watch.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by stickyears
    Raw GINI is a poor indicator of actual inequality experienced by people because it is taken *before* including things that we do to improve it. Social housing, free at the point of use education and healthcare, state pension payments, disability and out-of-work benefits and handouts, charity and so on need to be factored into people's wealth or income as these are things that are being done to redistribute from high tax payers to low or non-tax payers and fix the very issue being measured.
    .
    Fair point. GINI coefficient is not a perfect measurement of inequality. But however one measure inequality, it is hard to argue against that inequality is indeed growing in the US in the last 20 years, and upward social mobility is increasingly difficult for many in those countries. Education, and especially higher education, used to be seen as the route to higher income. But now with exploding student debt and cutback in education spending, that may not be the case, at least as it once was.

    Never mind the system is being tilted too far in favour of the rich. The HK is one of the more extreme example of this, but the same can be seen in the US.

  8. #18

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    Sweden isn't doing so well for women, being the rape capital of the Western world with their delusional open borders approach to immigration.

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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy
    Fair point. GINI coefficient is not a perfect measurement of inequality. But however one measure inequality, it is hard to argue against that inequality is indeed growing in the US in the last 20 years, and upward social mobility is increasingly difficult for many in those countries. Education, and especially higher education, used to be seen as the route to higher income. But now with explosing student debt and cutback in education spending, that may not be the case, at least as it once was.

    Never mind the system is being tilted too far in favour of the rich. The HK is one of the more extreme example of this, but the same can be seen in the US.
    Inequality isn't in itself bad. Venezuela is far more equal today than it was 25 years ago, it's just that now everyone has to eat their pets, but that's not the outcome that most people would consider desireable.

    Hong Kong does do things to improve the inequality (free use schools, healthcare, fruit money, etc) but then cancels them out due to the vested interests pushing up the cost of providing housing, supermarket and market foods, transport, MPF, etc and pushing distributions fed down back up to the top again. That's by design of course. Any cash handouts to HKers are designed to be given back to the tycoons somehow. Proper competition would sort that out.

    As someone once said, “a society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
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  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by stickyears
    Inequality isn't in itself bad. Venezuela is far more equal today than it was 25 years ago, it's just that now everyone has to eat their pets, but that's not the outcome that most people would consider desireable.

    Hong Kong does do things to improve the inequality (free use schools, healthcare, fruit money, etc) but then cancels them out due to the vested interests pushing up the cost of providing housing, supermarket and market foods, transport, MPF, etc and pushing distributions fed down back up to the top again. That's by design of course. Any cash handouts to HKers are designed to be given back to the tycoons somehow. Proper competition would sort that out.

    As someone once said, “a society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
    Well I think the kind of inequality we are talking about, cross-generational poverty, lack of upward social mobility and lack of opportunities, cronyism and government benefits only for the wealthy and so on clearly have highly negative impacts. The sort of communist equality where everyone is worse off in that everyone is "equally" poor (i.e. Maoist China) is not what we have in mind, of course.

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