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Sino US: Journalist Expulsions...

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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy
    But the basis for your argument is that you are assuming the Trump Administration is sincere in wanting press freedom for China. They are not. They are using this to score political points. China is perfectly happy to toss out all American media organizations from China. Losing access to the US in return is a small price to pay. Many US journalists in fact opposed the Trump Administration's move to staged a de facto explusion of CCTV staff from the US.

    I don't believe Trump is sincere or honest in pushing for press freedom in China. They are just looking to deflect blame during the coronavirus spread in the US. No other countries have expelled Chinese journalists. The US acting alone is ineffective.
    Won't having no foreign press in China hurt the nation in the longer term.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast
    Won't having no foreign press in China hurt the nation in the longer term.
    But China is devious. They are not expelling ALL Western journalists but specifically American journalists. US media will just have to rely on British, Canadian or Australian media sources for China-based news. Trump, as always, is acting unilaterally and alone. No other Western country is following in his footsteps. Without some international coordination or alliance, it will be ineffective.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy
    But the basis for your argument is that you are assuming the Trump Administration is sincere in wanting press freedom for China. They are not. They are using this to score political points. China is perfectly happy to toss out all American media organizations from China. Losing access to the US in return is a small price to pay. Many US journalists in fact opposed the Trump Administration's move to staged a de facto explusion of CCTV staff from the US.

    I don't believe Trump is sincere or honest in pushing for press freedom in China. They are just looking to deflect blame during the coronavirus spread in the US. No other countries have expelled Chinese journalists. The US acting alone is ineffective.
    I'm sure Trump doesn't care about press freedom in China. But the people arguing for engaging China to make her more free have had their turn, now it's time to stop pretending it will ever work. His motives don't really matter, as long as it results in a complete decoupling from China the US will come out ahead in the long term. Only 8% of US GDP comes from trade, half of that is within NAFTA. The US will do just fine without China or even an international coalition of China appeasers. Although Trump is a first rate moron and can't handle anything I sincerely hope he will get re-elected. The presidential election will be at a critical time when the world is reeling from the coronavirus impact and a more progressive government will give an opening for China to exploit. Just look at the news from the last days, apparently Trump calling it the "Chinese Virus" is more important than pushing back at China's propaganda efforts to deflect blame to the US with wild conspiracy theories. The Chinese press has gone all out relabeling the coronavirus as a foreign disease. They are now even quarantining foreigners who haven't left China in the last few months. The new narrative is that foreigners are dangerous and only China can offer protection form the pandemic.
    Last edited by mrgoodkat; 18-03-2020 at 08:00 PM.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgoodkat
    I'm sure Trump doesn't care about press freedom in China. But the people arguing for engaging China to make her more free have had their turn, now it's time to stop pretending it will ever work. His motives don't really matter, as long as it results in a complete decoupling from China the US will come out ahead in the long term.
    I like many of your posts and I don't mean to sound harsh, but those believing in a complete decoupling that is quick or easy is naive. And I'm speaking as someone who is a harsh critic of the CCP. I'm looking at this with an objective analytical lens.

    You are mistaken if you think America alone can suppress China. China is not the Soviet Union, despite sharing a communist political system. It is a lot more capable and smarter than the Soviets ever were.

    And even in the case of the Soviet Union, the US didn't won the Cold War all by itself. And it was won not just by military and economic strength, but also the belief in the superior value of the US. The biggest failing of Trump is that he has a moral value deficit. He advocates America First, great, but to constrain the CCP, America acting alone is insufficent and inadequate. He has to rally allied nations to his side. The Cold War after all was not won by the US alone, but allies in Western Europe and Asia also contributed. And no matter how flawed or dubious some of the US Cold War actions were, in general, there was still a belief that America represented liberal values of freedom that is superior and preferable to the communist dictatorship of the USSR. That matters. America had the "shining beacon on a hill" symbolism that attracted believers to their side.

    But Trump has none of that. If anything, traditional US allies are repulsed by Trump and his "make America great again" actions. He is acting against China not because it represented some ideological threat that will spread authoritarianism around the world, but it is an economic threat with the potential to usurp the no.1 spot in the world economic ranking from the US. There is no underlying value to rally around, like liberal values vs communism as in the case of the Cold War.
    Last edited by Coolboy; 18-03-2020 at 08:11 PM.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy
    I like many of your posts and I don't mean to sound harsh, but those believing in a complete decoupling that is quick or easy is naive. And I'm speaking as someone who is a harsh critic of the CCP. I'm looking at this with an objective analytical lens.
    Oh, I'm sure you are 100% right. The US won't be able to push back against China alone. The problem is that there are no other countries with those liberal values you have mentioned willing to confront China, because not offending China is a big part of liberal values in 2020 or so it appears.
    Just look at Trudeau. Canada has been one the most attacked countries and the one with the most reasons to join Trump. He should have banned Huawei by now and expelled a few diplomats for the way China bullied Canada over the whole extradition saga. But he hasn't because that wouldn't be very woke and liberal of him. Or Merkel, Germany is probably one of the countries suffering most from Chinese industrial espionage. But she hasn't spoken out or organized the EU countries against China either.
    The sad reality is that there is not a single liberal head of state willing to organize or join a concerted push back. They are all still believing in appeasement. For that reason we have to be happy with whatever Trump is doing for whatever his reasons may be. I don't believe that Biden or Sanders would rally allied nations to Americas side against China, do you?

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgoodkat
    Oh, I'm sure you are 100% right. The US won't be able to push back against China alone. The problem is that there are no other countries with those liberal values you have mentioned willing to confront China, because not offending China is a big part of liberal values in 2020 or so it appears.
    Just look at Trudeau. Canada has been one the most attacked countries and the one with the most reasons to join Trump. He should have banned Huawei by now and expelled a few diplomats for the way China bullied Canada over the whole extradition saga. But he hasn't because that wouldn't be very woke and liberal of him. Or Merkel, Germany is probably one of the countries suffering most from Chinese industrial espionage. But she hasn't spoken out or organized the EU countries against China either.
    The sad reality is that there is not a single liberal head of state willing to organize or join a concerted push back. They are all still believing in appeasement. For that reason we have to be happy with whatever Trump is doing for whatever his reasons may be. I don't believe that Biden or Sanders would rally allied nations to Americas side against China, do you?
    By liberal I mean "liberal" in the traditional political sense, not so much in the left vs right sense. I am referring to the bedrock principles of a modern sovereign state in the Western sense: in having a democratic form of government where citizens get to elect their political leaders through the ballot box, some form of separation between government branches to ensure a degree of check and balance betwen them, protection of fundamental rights (i.e. religious freedom, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press etc) and a rule of law with an impartial judiciary. These are the foundations all major political parties within those states subscribe to, whether they are left or right.

    The problem is that Trump is seen, fairly or not, as undermining those values, hence damaging the consensus between the US and the rest of the Western world. If Trump is seen as a threat to the very foundation of Western political thought, then how can they rally around him?

  7. #47

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    Great debate here. Calling out the motivations and practicality on one hand, and the failure of appeasement and the appeal of a principled stand on the other.

    Sad thing is both sides are posturing for their domestic audiences, and China will get more practical benefit for their targeted expulsions than the West will. If Trump gets anything, maybe it’s another Tower?

    Coolboy and Andy SNK like this.

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