Russia / Ukraine War - 2023 News and Issues

[East_coast]

A position paper rehashing old rhetoric is a peace plan about as much as creating islands while refusing to sell available land for cheaper and building temporary accommodation is a solution for the housing crisis.

The thing in common may be indeed “looking slightly further away and at a slightly larger audience”.

Strange and unfair hardly anyone who knows better is full of praise for both?

This article suggests the 12 point plan is for the domestic Chinese so they (with their limited access to news) feel Mr Xi is a global statesman independently brokering peace against western aggressors who support war etc.



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsl...war-next-china

[sarsi]

This article suggests the 12 point plan is for the domestic Chinese so they (with their limited access to news) feel Mr Xi is a global statesman independently brokering peace against western aggressors who support war etc

But it's Ministry of Foreign Affairs so my guess is to all, domestic and foreign. Btw I am completely out of sync on this with everyone who assumes this on off for China. They have state censorship and need VPN. They will get around it if needed. There is no more real tech barrier to info comm. Ignorance in this era is really strictly a matter of indifference or apathy. They plead this on behalf of the rest of their ppl in provinces whenever they need to eg the covid protests when they asked others to help raise awareness with videos online.

Not same focus but..

https://www.reuters.com/world/china-...us-2023-02-24/

[Grinnie Jax]

China will help

https://www.dw.com/en/china-urges-ru...lks/a-64806426

I read this, but still have no idea how it would help. Ukraine will not agree on ceasefire (neither US). Russia would gladly go for it, of course.

[Grinnie Jax]

Not same focus but..

https://www.reuters.com/world/china-...us-2023-02-24/

Reuters keep saying "Belarus is close ally with Russia", "Belarus allowed Russia to attack", but it's just plain wrong. It's Russia inside Belarus who commands, Belarusians are under occupation. Just because no one cared, the attack on Ukraine became possible.

[sarsi]

Reuters keep saying "Belarus is close ally with Russia", "Belarus allowed Russia to attack", but it's just plain wrong. It's Russia inside Belarus who commands, Belarusians are under occupation. Just because no one cared, the attack on Ukraine became possible.

They care.. majority "world" public support is still behind Ukr and military aid from the respective countries. Promises of funding/weapons and actual delivery might not match up but this always seems to be the case - their own citizens unhappy at the amount spent outside vs solving their own problems first. Like U.S. just said they would contribute US$444 million to the humanitarian response in Yemen. Whether the money really arrives I dunno but I bet there's a bunch of Americans cursing and swearing at the US govt for that. Overwarring also means civilians on the other end suffer. No perfect solution..

Even if they don't mind getting slammed as the evil foreign power always trying to topple govts :p the govt type of espionage or power struggle within Belarus between pro Russians and non-pro Russians is hard for outsiders to interfere on all levels. I doubt anyone or at least not me will be blaming Belarus for eternity if they support Russia whatever the reason. I mean Japan, Germany were on Axis Powers and Russia were with the Allies during WWII..

[Grinnie Jax]

Even if they don't mind getting slammed as the evil foreign power always trying to topple govts the govt type of espionage or power struggle within Belarus between pro Russians and non-pro Russians is hard for outsiders to interfere on all levels. I doubt anyone or at least not me will be blaming Belarus for eternity if they support Russia whatever the reason. I mean Japan, Germany were on Axis Powers and Russia were with the Allies during WWII..

The fact is that I, as a life-long opposition member, am tired of the fact that we have been shoved into Russia with all the might for 30 years. We were so damn happy to become sovereign in the early 90s, then this cunning Moscow-Berlin scheme with the "president" worked, Belarus and Ukraine were forced to give weapons to Russia (including nuclear), the OSCE in Belarus always said that we need to go to Russia (I mean Hans-Georg Wieck and his team of German "viewers" in Belarus). In 2020, the people CLEARLY showed that they do not want "USSR-2.0", that they want to live in independent, but pro-European country. Everyone saw perfectly well that Russia intervened, and that these were not regular "military exercises". But less than two years later, in 2022, our people are presented as "traitors", "criminals", "co-aggressors". Very short memory, I must say..

[Grinnie Jax]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...ian-partisans/

[sarsi]

In 2020, the people CLEARLY showed that they do not want "USSR-2.0", that they want to live in independent, but pro-European country. Everyone saw perfectly well that Russia intervened, and that these were not regular "military exercises". But less than two years later, in 2022, our people are presented as "traitors", "criminals", "co-aggressors". Very short memory, I must say..

I understand the frustration.. not unfamiliar.. but the parts you're describing - the ones that the "world" knew saw and didn't do or do enough to stop is seriously exactly the type of stuff the world and every country deliberately make it a point not to get involved in because it is very much an internal affairs of the country. And getting involved openly is condemned internationally by everyone as interfering with sovereign matters, getting involved covertly same and worse. For Ukr/Russia, it looks country to country but there is such a long and complicated history there that it is clearly not just that.

I get nervous whenever the discussion swings this way esp seeing the pro-ukr trying to help the war by tweeting recently abt Russia in this direction. Going there is imo a very bad idea because Ukr's own history with Crimea (which for a brief period was autonomous as self-declared) is not a great one to know for the context of the ongoing war if you want Ukr to win. The war has gone on for 1 year pretty much with most of the world totally supportive of Ukr and not bothering to know what the 4 regions are called or their very convoluted past with Ukr and Russia which is great cuz once you know, the only downside is losing some support, no upside at all. The public is very fickle..

[Grinnie Jax]

I understand the frustration.. not unfamiliar.. but the parts you're describing - the ones that the "world" knew saw and didn't do or do enough to stop is seriously exactly the type of stuff the world and every country deliberately make it a point not to get involved in because it is very much an internal affairs of the country. And getting involved openly is condemned internationally by everyone as interfering with sovereign matters, getting involved covertly same and worse. For Ukr/Russia, it looks country to country but there is such a long and complicated history there that it is clearly not just that.

I get nervous whenever the discussion swings this way esp seeing the pro-ukr trying to help the war by tweeting recently abt Russia in this direction. Going there is imo a very bad idea because Ukr's own history with Crimea (which for a brief period was autonomous as self-declared) is not a great one to know for the context of the ongoing war if you want Ukr to win. The war has gone on for 1 year pretty much with most of the world totally supportive of Ukr and not bothering to know what the 4 regions are called or their very convoluted past with Ukr and Russia which is great cuz once you know, the only downside is losing some support, no upside at all. The public is very fickle..

I understand your concern. This rabid support of some and the total hatred of others is also not a healthy phenomenon. Usually it ends with something not at all intellectual, but more from the category of religion. I want Ukraine not only to win, but also to recover from its sores - including from the corruption that totally permeates it, the feeling of superiority of one over the other, the attitude towards the eastern regions as something different - all these problems were there, this is obvious to anyone who was interested. I emphasize that none of this in any way justifies Russian intervention. As for Belarus, this is precisely the point, that they constantly interfere in our affairs. It so happened that we are at the crossroads of two cultures, so to speak. We felt like masters in our country only three years after the collapse of the USSR. Perhaps while the empire was recovering again. Since then, no one has a choice, either die/leave, or accept external control.

[sarsi]

This rabid support of some and the total hatred of others is also not a healthy phenomenon

That's not what I meant ;p if anything the group I expect not to remain level headed about winning support for their side would be the ones directly involved.. I'm really just saying imo it is a bad move to steer things that way, the very best outcome you will get is no change and more likely it will lose you some support.

I emphasize that none of this in any way justifies Russian intervention

Exactly.. that is also why everyone supports Ukr because there is that Ukr / Russia delineation. Both of you are sovereign so whatever the history, no matter whether there could be any group in particular getting the short end of the stick, these are internal affairs of Ukraine and the golden international rule is you don't interfere at all, safe for the usual useless strictly verbal politicking. Russia's declaration of war is purported to be intervention by action. Purported and a fake cover story if it is doesn't matter - it is the very same type of help that you wish for and very frustrated why the world doesn't seem to be doing for Belarus and Ukraine..