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Man dies after being shot by policeman

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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayinhongkong:
    It's hard to say what any of us would do in that situation.
    Fair enough, but the police officer is the only one who is allowed to walk our streets with a gun, and who has the right to use it. He is supposed to be trained to deal with that andrenaline. He is also supposed to know how to use his pepper spray, and his baton, and apparently he hadn't a fucking clue! (if you forgive my language). All he was able to do is take out his gun and shoot. Why on earth didn't he retreat and call for backup? Really you think he had no other option?!?!?!?!?

    And in my opinion police officers are not above the law, and if I (a private citizen) don't have the right to shoot someone in the head after he threatened me with a chair, then a policeman is not allowed to do that either. So tell me: "If someone threatens me with a chair, do you think I have the right to shoot him in the head?"

    And aussiegal, as I pm you, the question is whether I (a private citizen!) can do it.

    And DPLM, why the difference?

  2. #142

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    Because whilst policemen are not above the law, they are empowered by law to act in different ways to other citizens. The essence of a police force in a democratic society is that the mass of the population vest certain rights, authorities and responsibilities in the police force and give up certain rights themselves. This is felt to be in the greater good of the people as a whole.

    If you don't like such a system and would prefer everyone to have the same rights then feel free to move to a place where such a system does not apply, such as Somalia.


  3. #143

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    The only problem i see is that the officer continued to shout out in Cantonese to this guy. In the past when i have stopped by police they automatically speak Chinese and assume I can speak it too (even though I can) I always reply "Eh, sorry do u speak English", I look nothing like Chinese, brown skinned so why the automatically assume i can speak it, don't they know that lots of foreigners come to HK.

    I have no problem with the shooting, if i was the cop and the guy kept on going at me even after the pepper spray and baton then i would shoot as well, what if the overpowered me, took me out and then took the gun and went on a shooting spree. Who know if the guy was a Loony or not.

    Safran, if u were a cop, u asked me to do something and i kept on ignoring you then i started to attack you with whatever i got a hand to which in this case is a chair, u pepper spray me, i am mental now and that will not stop me, i keep on charging you, u have no choice but to shot me, do u think i am going to stand there and be target pratice so u can shoot me in the middle region, heck no, i am going to charge your ass and beat the shit out off u, so who knows if you lost your balance and shot me in the head, maybe u were aiming somewhere else. Only the Cop knows so stop arguing why he was shoot the guy in the head.


  4. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by buchowski:
    You need to understand how a Police Force operates. The Officers are despatched to incidents through a control room, the Officers don't choose where or what they want to do. They are either available to be despatched or busy at another incident or busy with a prisoner.

    So the Officer is told where to go, he'll be told that there is a disturbance. That's it. Now he arrives and he has to deal with it.

    If anyone is at fault it will be the Control Room - exactly the same as what happened when the Brazilian student was killed in London.
    Well, obviously. Everyone and his dog knows that. But if all other police officers have to answer calls in pairs, why do motorcycle cops attend non-emergency calls alone (and so enthusiastically)? It's not like waiting would have done any harm, perhaps a few more drops of urine on the ground... I'm surprised they don't have guidelines covering such things. If they did, this wouldn't have happened.

    And, separately, I still suspect that the cop performed really badly. It was the worst possible outcome, after all.

  5. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by wtbhotia:
    Safran, if u were a cop,
    If this was the case I think we should worry about more than this!

    Can we please ignore the guy?

  6. #146

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    I think it's quite amusing to hear arguments where it is described as if the policeman shot the fellow in the head as an execution.

    The reality is that the guy was coming at him and he most likely discharged the firearm in the direction of a moving attacker who was probbaly moving head and body and a bullet accidentally hit the head. I seriously doubt the policeman would aim there since it's likely to be a miss and won't stop the attacker.

    He killed him because he missed not because he intended to... Would I promote the guy? No, it does seem like he could have performed better but he basically did what he thought was right and then had to react to the developing situation. You can't expect a policeman to flee the scene of a conflict and as to standing by and observing, that might be easier said than done if the other fellow is chasing you. Waiting for back up is ridiculous since no one can reasonably expect this kind of situation particularly in HK and policemen can't call for back up anything they are interacting with the public.

    And just for the heck of it for our resident troll, if citizens are allowed to carry a firearm and someone attacks them and they fear for their life and decide to shoot them(an intruder for example), they may be investigated but would very likely not be prosecuted. It's called self defense and it doesn't matter whether the other person has a gun or not.


  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    If this was the case I think we should worry about more than this!

    Can we please ignore the guy?
    Feel very safe and secure in the thought, that people like Safran, never become members of the Hong Kong Police Force..

    I think out of 8000 applicants last year, 300 ? were recruited, one of our family friends, his son just got accepted into detective training ( only 8 were chosen), and the quality of the candidates is first rate, and well educated, forensic science degree's the usual specialty etc...

    People like Safran would rather the police run away from the criminals, instead of tackle the situation head on, and do what we the public pay them to do, their job...

    This argument about citizens being above the law, applies to the bar stool thrusting criminal, who ignored the authority of a policeman, a policeman who is authorized by the people to uphold and administer that law, based on the particular situation at hand...

    It's a tough job, and if some of you feel so sure of yourselves, why don't you volunteer, and join the Hong Kong Auxiliary Police Force, that's if you even meet the min criteria of successful candidacy ....
    Last edited by Skyhook; 20-03-2009 at 02:20 PM.

  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgl:
    There is another, completely differed refreshingly non-PC, argument from NYC becoming safer that was presented in the wonderfully readable pop-economics book Freakonomics.

    If I recall correctly, the decline in crime was something that was mirrored in other major US cities, and came 20 years after abortion was legalised in the US. The argument being that kids were less likely to be born into disadvantaged situations and hence become more likley to turn to crime later in life.
    I hadn't read that but I do know that crime statistics don't tell the complete story. Wasn't it the Atlanta Police that get caught in the run up to the 1996 Olympics of under reporting the crimes that had been reported to them? Citizen - 'I got mugged.' Officer: 'No you didn't.' I did too....etc. No crime report taken was the game.

    Other than the Atlanta debacle, it was generally a North American wide phenomenon that crime rates for some crimes were falling. In some areas where crime is rampant many crimes go unreported so stats don't always tell the whole story. And if you are one of 6 victims per 1,000 you don't much care that it places you are the top of the one most safe cities in the world - you're still dead or harmed.

    As to Safran asking what he can do if some poster goes nuts and whacks him with a chair, the general rule in western countries is that you have the right to defend yourself including deadly force if your life or that of others is in danger. It varies by court jurisdiction though and it might not be worth to test out what you can do.

    The difference between us in the public is that in most countries aren't packing guns. If you kill someone who attacks you or others in most western versions of justice the degree of force to defend yourself must be justified. If Safran is hit once by the chair and not repeatedly, shooting in response could result in murder or in Canada, a manslaughter charge. Herein lies the rub. How many citizens actually know their rights and what might be a lawful response including actually shooting.

    I don't know HK law but I know in Canada, that if you kill someone you might actually be better off with a more serious murder charge than a manslaughter charge as it is far easier to convict for the latter than a flat out murder conviction and I don't mean the burden of proof which is consistent for both - just that the consequences and the mens rea, etc and other elements to prove murder charge vs the lesser charge.

    Safran thinking is dangerous for himself if he is ever more than bluster. I'd call that 'loose cannon' behavior and those guys always eventually end up screwing themselves.

  9. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safran:
    I ask you again, and I would appreciate an answer:
    If someone threatens me with a chair, do you think I have the right to shoot him in the head?
    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    If you are a police officer going about your lawful duty and you believe that your life is in danger, then yes. Otherwise, no.
    PDLM has actually answered this more than perfectly for me.

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by wtbhotia:
    Safran, if u were a cop.
    Chief Wiggum springs to mind but then Chief Wiggum is entertaining so perhaps not

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