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Man dies after being shot by policeman

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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    Frankly I think that proves that you are.
    If the fact that I'm willing to defend my rights and my person against the minority of police officers who are viciously overzealous in their application of force makes me insane, then yes, I'm batshit insane.

  2. #72

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    No, the fact that such an approach is likely suicidal where the police are armed is what makes it insane.


  3. #73

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    Call it silly rhetoric if you will, but some would rather fight for their rights than submit to tyranny.


  4. #74

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    Gilles, i've only ever agreed with you on one or two things but this is one of them.

    I fail to see how else the situation could have been handled differently. Firing a gun is not an easy thing let alone hitting a target. Even if it were possible to train police to 'shoot to harm' rather than kill who says 1) that shooting someone in the arm would keep them down and that 2) each and every police officer is capable of being that accurate? It's just nonsense.

    Nobody here is happy with the outcome but if you choose to take on an armed police officer and fail to get the message when they have used pepper spray and a baton what do you expect? It's not like the police carry a never ending supply of weapons to try when the one before fails. Numchuckers anyone?

    Those people outraged by this incident, Lotalife, Shri et al please tell me how the situation should have been handled. I will happily take my comments back if one person can come up with a reasonable way of handling such incidents.


  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfire:
    If the fact that I'm willing to defend my rights and my person against the minority of police officers who are viciously overzealous in their application of force makes me insane, then yes, I'm batshit insane.
    Umm no citizen is above the laws of any land..

    A society that doesn't respect or adhere to police instruction, isn't a society that works in all reality.

    I am amazed that there are people here who have little or no respect of authority, and that you think you have more rights while performing a criminal act ( attacking a police officer is a very serious crime ) than a member of the police force that is employed to uphold the law..? Laws that are designed to keep the peace and protect society.

    Attacking a police officer anywhere in the world, and failing to back down with a final warning and fire arm drawn, is the accountable decision that the recalcitrant offender chose to undertake...

    Unless you have a death wish, don't attack police officers, you'll either get a lengthy gaol term, or under more severe circumstances, shot....
    Last edited by Skyhook; 18-03-2009 at 02:45 PM.

  6. #76

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    Skyhook - Dunno why .. but I have a very General Dyer type picture forming in my mind after reading some of your posts.

    Reginald Dyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are a lot of gray areas to what we all do ... a lot.


  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Umm no citizen is above the laws of any land..
    Are police officers above the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    A society that doesn't respect or adhere to police instruction, isn't a society that works in all reality.
    So in theory, a police state would "work"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    I am amazed that there are people here who have little or no respect of authority, and that you think you have more rights than a member of the police force that is employed to uphold the law...
    I have never claimed to have more rights than any police officers. I have no more, and no less. It's a fact that police officers sometimes overstep their legal authority. That is when resistance becomes justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Attacking a police officer anywhere in the world, and failing to back down with a final warning and fire arm drawn, is the accountable decision that the recalcitrant offender chose to undertake...
    In case you didn't read my earlier post, if things truly went down the way the article describes it, I also believe the officer in this case was justified in his actions.

    [QUOTE=Skyhook;337521]Unless you have a death wish, don't attack police officers, you'll either get a lengthy gaol term, or under more severe circumstances, shot..../QUOTE]
    I don't know if I've made some implications that I didn't intend, so let me clarify: I am not advocating blind resistance to all authority. I simply choose to be aware of my rights and if someone decides to encroach on those rights, I am prepared to resist. I realize this is an internet forum and I could easily say I follow any kind of moral code and you would have no way of verifying it, so you can dismiss what I say if you like. We all have to die some day, and I would rather die in defense of my rights than live in submission of forces that have no justifiable authority over me.

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfire:
    Call it silly rhetoric if you will, but some would rather fight for their rights than submit to tyranny.
    Amongst whom I count myself one. But actions such as described here are not even remotely close to tyranny, and in an environment where there is a reasonably functioning legal system and a free media I would rather engage in the battle there than by physically attacking an individual armed policeman going about his lawful duties.

  9. #79

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    I have known policemen who have had to shoot and killed people and it is far too easy to second guess. It can be a tough thing not just for a victim's family but for the officer who has had to shoot his gun.

    I knew one policeman who killed the brother-in-law of a policeman in another force (who I also knew personally) in similar circumstances to what seems to be the tragic case here. The cop who was the brother in law of the dead unarmed guy asked to meet me privately just to find out what kind of a person the other cop was and if I felt he was the type to shoot without cause (despite being a lawful shooting).

    Yes, it would likely have turned out vastly differently if the police had arrived on scene en masse and then a shooting avoided. However, a routine call like that is what police attend all the time. If it were a call for a man with a gun, they'd be instructed to wait for back up but even that is not always possible. Other times you have the numbers and police able to attack a guy like him from all sides but one thing - and I don't know it applies here or not - have you ever fought with a crazed person? These guys are so strong I have seen 6 police struggle to arrest a single person who has gone nuts.

    Sometimes you can't wait for back up: I was in the passenger seat of an unmarked plain clothes police car when we were going to a stabbing call. The dispatcher ordered us to wait a block away. We pulled over and as it was a summer evening I had the window down. Just then a guy runs towards my side of the car with a huge butcher knife and his shirt is covered in blood. I only have time to tell the dispatcher we have an armed assailant coming toward us a block away and I jump out of the car.

    The cop with me leapt out of his side and I told the guy we were the police and to stop and drop his knife. He didn't stop but proceeded to come toward us and my partner screams to stop or he'll blow his f...king head off. He is now 15 feet away from me and is looking like he might keep coming. I ask him quietly to drop the knife and show him I have nothing in my hands.

    After that was over, we went for coffee and the cop I was working with was shaking. He then told me that he came the closest he had ever had to firing his gun at that guy, and lucky for all of us he didn't. I just joked and told him "That was the fastest taking into custody of a complainant I had ever seen."

    That guy with the knife was our complainant who was waiting down the street outside a house in the dark as he was in fear of the stabber coming after him. We didn't get the information from the dispatcher that the victim had left the house where the stabbing had taken place. This is the nature of police work where they are operating in real time and know an error by them can lead to a life lost or even to their career ending.






    I don't know if the law in HK is as it is in Canada where it is lawful to shoot if he or she perceives their life or the lives of others are in danger.

    Police know one thing. It doesn't matter much what comes out of the end of a gun when they make that decision to fire- chances are that a bullet hitting a body anywhere can and will kill. They are not taught to shoot for the legs as someone suggested but for the critical mass of the body - the chest. Also, do you want a bullet just sailing off into some innocent person if they miss? It takes some skill to shoot under fire and it is not something that police normally enjoy doing. Some never recover from that - I know those kind also.

    I feel very badly at the loss of such a young life in circumstances that sound might never have occurred if not for alcohol possibly. It is a tragedy for his family and friends but let's not forget the policeman is no less a victim here either.

    If HK is like other places, he will be subject to internal reviews and also the risk of criminal prosecution (which is unlikely but something that the police have to face in these situations). The horror of shooting can and will stay with him for a life time.


  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    Amongst whom I count myself one. But actions such as described here are not even remotely close to tyranny, and in an environment where there is a reasonably functioning legal system and a free media I would rather engage in the battle there than by physically attacking an individual armed policeman going about his lawful duties.
    His lawful duties, yes. I take no issue with the majority of officers who perform their duties admirably and lawfully. I will gladly cooperate with any police officers who perform their duties in such a manner. They and I are on the same side as citizens with equal rights.

    Some, a vast minority, overstep their authority and use excessive force. Force that can easily cause grievous bodily harm and lifelong injury that keep you from living your life fully. If such force was to be applied upon me unjustifiably then I would resist and take my chances rather than accept whatever was coming.

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