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  1. #21

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    Why not ? They sit there mute, when the hostile minority of their religion hurts others, as far as i am concerned, their silence and lack of protest toward this hostile element, by default, makes them equally responsible.

    When I see the majority of the Muslim community, actively condemn their extremist component, I will give some well earned respect, based on that display of courage.

    The only community that can fix the problems that Muslims face abroad, is the Muslim community.Most western nations have bent over backwards to the extent that they now suffer,because of one ethnic/religious groups refusal, to assimilate into the host culture, like the progressive rest.

    We need to stop blaming other people, while hiding behind excuses, when this group sits on its hands and does nothing to address the issue of extremism within its own religious community.

    Last edited by Skyhook; 24-05-2010 at 01:00 PM.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Why not ? They sit there mute, when the hostile minority of their religion hurts others, as far as i am concerned, their silence and lack of protest toward this hostile element, by default, makes them equally responsible.

    When I see the majority of the Muslim community, actively condemn their extremist component, I will give some well earned respect, based on that display of courage.

    The only community that can fix the problems that Muslims face abroad, is the Muslim community.Most western nations have bent over backwards to the extent that they now suffer,because of one ethnic groups refusal, to assimilate into the host culture, like the progressive rest.

    We need to stop blaming other people, while hiding behind excuses, when this group sits on its hands and does nothing to address the issue of extremism within its own religious community.
    Try reading some of these

    Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

    This comment is appropriate I think:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-et...m_b_67904.html
    Last edited by hullexile; 24-05-2010 at 01:05 PM.
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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    When I see the majority of the Muslim community, actively condemn their extremist component, I will give some well earned respect, based on that display of courage.
    What gives you the idea that they do not condemn extremist elements in their community? Because you don't read about it in the papers?
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  4. #24

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    I think I might jump in here because I HAVE lived in an Islamic nation (Malaysia).

    Skyhook - I'm surprised by your arguments. You are usually much more sensible than this.

    A few thoughts.

    How do we know that these asian-looking Muslim people were 'immigrants'. If they are anything like the multitude of similar folks in the UK, they are not immigrants, but rather second, third or 4th generation of immigrants, who were born in the country and can justifyably call themselves SWEDES.

    How can we categorise all Muslims as intolerant? Muslims reside in many, many nations and have quite different cultures in each. Taking malaysian women as an example - they drive, they hold senior positions in jobs, they are outspoken and great fun to be around. In Yemen and Saudi Arabia, these same women would be locked in their homes unable to drive or even move around without a chaparone. Same religion, quite different CULTURE.

    It is AT LEAST as much CULTURE that is driving these problems as religion. And the culture of an oppressed, non-working underclass is not much different if you compare unemployed Muslims in Sweden to blacks in the USA. And they both act the same.

    I'm not saying what happened in Sweden is right, but I recall a very, very similar incident to the You Tube footage when I was in Cambridge 20+ years ago - when Enoch Powell came to speak. There, many students protested, many of them violently, against him speaking. The guy was a member of the British Parliament at the time, and while what he had to say was an anathma to many,I thought he had earned the right to say it in peace without rioting.

    Young people are hot-heads. They have not yet learned that the world does not owe them a living and that fitting in with whatever culture you live in is important. So they riot and protest. French students protesting against losing jobs for life, anyone? Chinese students protesting in Tiananmen - we are not going to criticise them are we? Sometimes they are actually right! But they are not all Muslim.

    I don't mind a thread that objects to new immigrants being antisocial in their new home. On that matter I am with you Skyhook - a new immigrant should learn to fit in whereever they move. I had to do it in Australia! We all (expat here) have to do so here.

    But I really object to an entire religion being labelled unfairly. And as many of you know, I'm atheist myself and believe that religion is pretty much daft - but I think everyone has the right to their own beliefs and should not be hated JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION. Did we not learn that lesson in Europe last century?

    Tolerance is not weakness. It's the first step to understanding cultural differences and without understanding we cannot create bridges. And boy does this world need a few cultural bridges.

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  5. #25

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    A terrorist masquerading as someone doing Allah's work is still a terrorist. I am pretty sure many Muslim nations and representative organisations have been as vociferous in their condemnation of terrorist acts as can be expected. After the WTC attacks there was a tremendous response against this crime.
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  6. #26

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    Skyhook just in case clicking on the links is too much, here is an excellent section from the second one:

    ".. it is an act of egregious ignorance for a human being to actually verbalize the words: "Do Muslims condemn terror?" Here is a suggestion from a lowly immigrant: try this thing called "googling." Start with using the search terms "Muslims condemn terror."

    Finally, the reality is that condemnations of terrorism have been pouring in for years. The reasons that so many Americans are still ignorant about them are because they have willfully chosen not to pay attention....I can confidently say that our media has one of the lowest IQs about Islam anywhere in the world. It is - and should be - downright shameful that....six years since 9/11 and in the US I am still clarifying the simple point that Muslims soundly oppose terrorism. With awareness about Muslims at such a shameful nadir, it should be no surprise that our beloved President was able to convince us that Saddam was behind 9/11 and take us to war against "Islamofascism."

    Naturally, media ignorance has diffused to the public. In the US we don't have an idea who the Muslim leaders around the world are, much less how to access their opinion on terror. Bereft of such information we have latched onto a simple slogan fed to us by the far right, namely, why don't we see parades and public demonstrations?

    Did we ever stop and think that asking Muslims to get together in a big public setting, unarmed, with women and children in tow, making loud gesticulations against suicide bombers and cold hearted murderers (who in their cowardice are not against cloaking themselves in veils), might be a rather stupid thing to demand? Did Americans forget how empty our streets were after 9/11 or how desolate Bethesda, Maryland, was during the days of DC sniper? Now try living in a society where suicide bombers are in every city and township and regularly attack group events like the Friday congregational prayers. In the US we have not had a suicide bombing since 9/11. Yet in Pakistan, 65 people - Muslims all of them - died in an attack by extremists yesterday. During the week before, there were two other suicide bombings. Is it reasonable to keep demanding that Muslims keep thronging out into the street at the whim of far away American masters? Then, when despite all these dangers, Muslims do gather to speak out against violence in their countries, it goes ignored by our media.

    On September 12, 2001, one of the most learned Islamic scholars in the UK said the terrorists are "not Muslim." A month later he called terrorism a "heresy" against Islam in a pre-eminent British paper. A Pakistani Islamic scholar whose followers are active in 81 countries called Bin Laden a "false prophet" and "coward" barely a week after 9/11. Another major Islamic scholar issued a pamphlet (in many languages) attacking the Islamic legal arguments that the terrorists used so that future recruits might not be so easily led astray. One of the eldest traditionalist scholar in Sunni Islam issued a fatwa against the extremist group Al Muhajiroun. Muslims in Spain issued a fatwa against Bin Laden.....Just the other day Bin Laden's former mentor condemned him for his violence. Nevermind the fact that before 9/11 it was a Muslim who warned our State department about monitoring certain mosques, or that it was a Muslim who tipped off the British authorities and helped prevent the 20 airliner hijacking in 2006."


    So skyhook, some well earned respect?

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  7. #27

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    I think Lebanon is a great example of a tolerant society.

    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    ...when Muslims do gather to speak out against violence in their countries, it goes ignored by our media.
    True...true...
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 24-05-2010 at 01:37 PM.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    I think I might jump in here because I HAVE lived in an Islamic nation (Malaysia).

    Skyhook - I'm surprised by your arguments. You are usually much more sensible than this.

    A few thoughts.

    How do we know that these asian-looking Muslim people were 'immigrants'. If they are anything like the multitude of similar folks in the UK, they are not immigrants, but rather second, third or 4th generation of immigrants, who were born in the country and can justifyably call themselves SWEDES.

    How can we categorise all Muslims as intolerant? Muslims reside in many, many nations and have quite different cultures in each. Taking malaysian women as an example - they drive, they hold senior positions in jobs, they are outspoken and great fun to be around. In Yemen and Saudi Arabia, these same women would be locked in their homes unable to drive or even move around without a chaparone. Same religion, quite different CULTURE.

    It is AT LEAST as much CULTURE that is driving these problems as religion. And the culture of an oppressed, non-working underclass is not much different if you compare unemployed Muslims in Sweden to blacks in the USA. And they both act the same.

    I'm not saying what happened in Sweden is right, but I recall a very, very similar incident to the You Tube footage when I was in Cambridge 20+ years ago - when Enoch Powell came to speak. There, many students protested, many of them violently, against him speaking. The guy was a member of the British Parliament at the time, and while what he had to say was an anathma to many,I thought he had earned the right to say it in peace without rioting.

    Young people are hot-heads. They have not yet learned that the world does not owe them a living and that fitting in with whatever culture you live in is important. So they riot and protest. French students protesting against losing jobs for life, anyone? Chinese students protesting in Tiananmen - we are not going to criticise them are we? Sometimes they are actually right! But they are not all Muslim.

    I don't mind a thread that objects to new immigrants being antisocial in their new home. On that matter I am with you Skyhook - a new immigrant should learn to fit in whereever they move. I had to do it in Australia! We all (expat here) have to do so here.

    But I really object to an entire religion being labelled unfairly. And as many of you know, I'm atheist myself and believe that religion is pretty much daft - but I think everyone has the right to their own beliefs and should not be hated JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION. Did we not learn that lesson in Europe last century?

    Tolerance is not weakness. It's the first step to understanding cultural differences and without understanding we cannot create bridges. And boy does this world need a few cultural bridges.
    Yes, Malaysia is a good example of a relatively moderate and liberal Muslim country where people are free to practice Christianity etc. Even good old Dr M used to have running confrontations with the more hardcore Shariah-law minded folks from the more conservative states.
    Posted via Mobile Device

  9. #29

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    Huge improvement there over previous years' troubles with the (predominantly Hindu) ethnic Indian minority...

    Malaysian PM hails ethnic Indian voters


  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought:
    I think Lebanon is a great example of a tolerant society.
    is that sarcasm?

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