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How would you improve China?

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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Even watching my staff at work, I notice that the Asians work much harder than the "westerners" at group co-ordination (or "harmony" if you want to use a Chinese phrase). I believe that Westerners believe much more strongly than (many Asian) cultures that the individual is the unit at which human rights accrue, whereas I think that many Asians might say that their family is the unit that they want their rights at - that is, any individual in a family might give up some of their own "freedoms" in order for the family as a whole to prosper.

    (The CCP takes this concept larger and makes the whole country into "family". At what point does the analogy break down?
    Perhaps that simplistic generalization about Asians explains why my office is also very harmonious. I make about HKD $4 million per year; take long vacations and trips around the world, and leave early every day. My staff get paid a pittance, get two weeks a year vacation, and basically work 24/7 (as a matter of fact, were working this weekend while I took my kids to Ocean Park). What a great situation (for me). What a harmonious office! Yes, we all have "human rights"; those rights simply accrue to me, and not to my staff. Of course, they are very happy with this situation (not that I would ever ask them, or they would ever say anything, since they would immediately be terminated for voicing a view on the issue. But I am sure they are quite happy). For obvious reasons, I want this situation to continue forever. So does the CCP.
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  2. #52

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    Original Post Deleted

    .............and judging by your contribution to this threat I would think it is more likely you have no education.


    seriously what does your remark about Moving brings to the debate?

    You need to grow a pair and stop behaving/bullying as if you were still at school.........

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Why does everyone take it for granted that ending the police state will somehow destroy China? .
    I do not think anyone think that.

    The question is at what speed.

    Gradually or big bang style or any other style.

  4. #54

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    The Brit "The fact she has even felt the need to mention her education is a sign how weak her arguments are."

    To be fair to Moving07, I was actually the one who first brought up her education...
    Last edited by Freetrader; 11-04-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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  5. #55

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    Not sure why people have to attack someone's education or infer that the CCP have posters on those board. That is rather silly without proof. As far as the person who doesn't like Google and wants us to cite books this is not college any more. A book is not all fact either.

    Moving07:
    "The CCP takes this concept larger and makes the whole country into "family". At what point does the analogy break down?"

    That is not an apt analogy for China despite how you characterized the Chinese culture so well. I believe the PRC believe in the following as key issues.

    The PRC gov't to me has 3 flash points that are absolutely fundamental absolute issues for them which is where they PRC focuses:

    1. social stability and harmony to avoid chaos - this is why they have harsh laws about speaking out and why they enforce them. Not saying this is right but this is how I believe they see it. They fear unrest and problems if they don't impose an iron will and hand on the people.

    China is a very large, populous and diverse ethnically country that is not easy to manage to bring into modern times quickly. My sense is that over time as their people become more prosperous they will lessen the incarceration of dissidents.

    They can see that other nations have had their own chaos with the US race riots in the 60s burning down inner cities and how other nations have fragmented along ethnic lines. I am sure they are very aware of how the USSR collapsed and how the war in Afghanistan and their defeat there was a major contributor to the USSR collapse.

    I think too the history of China has been one of being under attack and siege and in their desire to prevent it, they have harsh laws on dissidents.

    2. the economy - instability will hurt that.

    3. Taiwan - there is just always that undercurrent that this is an absolute non-negotiable issue. They have seemingly undertaken a hollowing out strategy there by allowing their people to own/operate businesses.

    Last edited by Football16; 11-04-2011 at 02:43 PM.
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  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    The Brit "The fact she has even felt the need to mention her education is a sign how weak her arguments are."

    To be fair to Moving07, I was actually the one who first brought up her education...
    You've been done there, DeletedUser - back in your box!!!

  7. #57

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    Ah insutling ppl, this you are good at.
    We call it the weapon of the weaks.
    What was your argument again? yawn.

    I have no political power whatsoever but I do go to china roughly on a monthly basis (when is the last time you went to china? not the SAR.) to meet with local ppl to develop local projects (where my wife is from).

    During the last 5 years we have given a hand timewise/financially wise....into cleaning and rebuilding some old houses, distributing books on regular basis and my wife tries to teach there once in a while some english courses. It is of course totally benevolent and we do it because we are happy to do it. I am not here to boast, far from it since what we do is very little and in no way going to change the system in China, we just do it because she is from there and ppl need it - and before you come on here with your condescend comments, I do not need your approval/nor your opinion on this.

    The problems in China are real, the corruption is very high (especially at town level, we faced the issue more than once) and the locals are usually upset about the fat cows making money on their back so I will not deny the fact that China has A LOT to improve on those aspects.

    The main issue to me remain at what speed and how changes should take place - obviously ppl will have different opinions but making fun of ppl's education or background surely brings nothing to the debate - well aside from highlighting your incapability to argument without insulting.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Have a heed to history. The last "revolution" in China did not exactly end well.
    I do. The last revolution ended badly because it was run by ruthless group of killers headed by a man who eventually became a full-on psychopath. The children of that same group of people are still running the country. The so-called "bad emperor" problem is exactly why China needs to get out of its 12th-century mindset.

    Regarding uneducated peasants, I don't believe that a college education is required to run a democracy.

    I agree that change cannot happen overnight. It is clear that the party would prefer that change not happen at all. How many years of one-party rule is enough? We are going on 62 years now. When, exactly, will China be "ready"?

    China could make a gradual transition to a full democracy in 5-10 years, and everyone would benefit except the cronies in Beijing (and they would probably do just fine also). Places like Taiwan and South Korea were once also thought to be ungovernable but since they were client states of the US, they were pressured into democracy. Taiwan has been a democracy for a full quarter century now, and there is a least as much bad blood and ethnic antagonism there per capita as in China. Hell, the minority party, the KMT, which used to oppress the native Taiwanese, is now the elected majority. The CCP could do the same thing in China, if it plays its cards right (let's all forget about the 50 million dead, for the moment).

    That is not to mention that going democratic would pretty much solve the Taiwan "problem" which is the PRC's most glaring international problem and potential flash-point with the West.

    The CCP is only going to give up when they start to realize that the world is laughing at them for being so backward and clinging to power so desperately.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Perhaps that simplistic generalization about Asians explains why my office is also very harmonious. I make about HKD $4 million per year; take long vacations and trips around the world, and leave early every day. My staff get paid a pittance, get two weeks a year vacation, and basically work 24/7 (as a matter of fact, were working this weekend while I took my kids to Ocean Park). What a great situation (for me). What a harmonious office! Yes, we all have "human rights"; those rights simply accrue to me, and not to my staff. Of course, they are very happy with this situation (not that I would ever ask them, or they would ever say anything, since they would immediately be terminated for voicing a view on the issue. But I am sure they are quite happy). For obvious reasons, I want this situation to continue forever. So does the CCP.
    Are you not responsible for the use of your staff resources and how you work them?

    Not accountable for this to anyone?

    Terminate them if they complained about this situation? Wow, they must really respect you or are desperate or dumb or some combination of all three.

    I thought it was mostly the local managers who didn't realize that there is no way people can be productive with ridiculous hours all the time as there are mostly just there to keep up appearances.

    How FreeTrader manages doesn't square with how he thinks the PRC should manage its people too much now does it.

    To me the revolution begins at home. If FT wants to bring about great changes in the PRC he possibly could help by giving his staff some dignity and respect and develop them to be as good as he as is as getting the work done and enjoying his life.
    Last edited by Football16; 11-04-2011 at 02:53 PM.

  10. #60

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    I remember that Vietnam and Indian attacked China first. I learned it from the government, so I know it is not reliable. But we did retreat after we gave them a lesson

    Quote Originally Posted by bookblogger:
    Not sure what point you're trying to make, but China launched wars against its neighbours most recently in 1962 and 1979, so it's not the peaceful state some make it out to be.

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