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How would you improve China?

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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    On average perhaps, but only because there was huge wealth in the hands of a very few. The UK was then and is still a far better place to be poor than Hong Kong. And both places are far better places to be in need of medical care than, for example, the US which has a totally broken and unsustainable healthcare system, and an utterly broken and corrupt financial system.

    You seem to take it as axiomatic that having democracy fixes these problems. But pure democracy demonstrably doesn't work - look at California where the fact that any idea that gets enough people to sign up to it can become law has resulted in a bankrupt state and a totally unsustainable financial mess.

    Instead of telling us what's wrong with everything, why don't you point to a system that works? As far as I can see the least bad model at the moment (in terms of citizen happiness, wealth and quality of life) is Singapore's, but it's not all clear that it would scale much beyond a city, never mind to 1 billion+ people.
    Don't really disagree much at all, (well, I'm actually not sure I agree that it's better to be poor in the UK but that is a fine point) except if we are going to discuss optimal systems of government, we had better start a new thread. Here, we are simply trying to make China's government less bad.

    It is clearly Singapore that the rulers of the PRC are looking to as a model for their country. Moving and some of the others believe that China will get there - eventually. I would counter that with the example of Taiwan - which has a raucously free press, a high standard of living, little poverty, and full democracy - all the while while being constantly threatened with annihilation by their 'brothers' across the straits

  2. #92

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    Yes, the socialistic form of democracy has failed in India, but, I could see why they decided to have this format for govt back then. The reason being, there was too much poverty, inequality etc. They thought this way they can bring up the first generation to normal or middle-class standard so that the subsequent generations could get a fair chance to make it big. But, nepotism (trust me this is the biggest enemy), beaurocracy, favoratism AND politics of region/language/caste/religion, etc didn't let that happen. So we still have all sorts of ludicrous "reservation" based on religion and caste, and YET, basic aminities still eludes most.
    Yes, we have had our share of deaths, albeit in different forms and continue to have so. The politics of religion, language, region, caste, is doing nothing but creating and increasing the rift between the people. I have heard a few who say bring the Brits back, or have a dictator who make sure to bring all of them in line, and I can't but wonder!!!

    We do have sense of one nation that goes back up to 5000 years, it may be not a very strict notion, but nevertheless that feeling of one nation has always been there.
    Things probably changed or started to change after the invasions in 13th century etc.
    And try marrying in to an Indian family, first of all you probably won't be able to and then if you do, you'll find out the Indian culture .

    Free press, hmm, now there's a novel idea. Most of the so called journalist in India today are known to be hand-in-glove with politicians and only report stories that are of interest to specific few or report in a way that'd benefit them.
    But, that's probably part of the ingrained corruption which has reached and hollowed the fourth pillar of state, as termite does wooden furniture.

    yes, the economic growth is there, but, doesn't reach everyone, and remains restricted to a very small percentage.

    All these three points below are fair and shows a bit of shift from your previous assertions, which is a logical consequance of a good debate.
    I am sure Mat/Moving07 would agree that if China implements these below given points then it'd be a fair good start. But, the kind of regime they have, it'd not be a very smart idea from their point of view.

    In last 20-25 years or so China has made progress in terms of the way it dealt with world and the way it runs the country. I am sure they also realise that ruling the way they did 50 years ago is not going to work, not only because the world is watching, but, even their own people won't accept it. Who knows, in few years time they might make some positive changes that'd improve the conditions for the Chinese and also improve their human rights graph.

    One question though, what if the govt keeps almost every thing as it is, but, doesn't commit any more atrocities against their own populace? Do you think it'd still be acceptable? I am sure, there would still be quite a few people with revolutionary ideas going even then.


    Sorry to sort of hijack a thread that's about China and discuss India instead. But, I had to do it, to give a background of sorts as to why I think what I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Gunsandroses, thanks for the compliment, and for the thoughtful post. Let me tell you why I disagree.

    It is true that democracy (and by the way, we didn't start out by discussing democracy here, only freedom of the press as a first start, but what the heck) is messy. But it is better than any alternative. But heck, I'm not asking for democracy today. I will take:

    - Free the press,

    - The rule of law with an indepedent court system, and

    - Ending the hokou internal passport system.

    China has made it this far on the strength of its culture and its people, not because of a few Marxist-trained clowns in the Politburo. To become a first class nation, China needs to free its people. To argue the alternative, that only a people who are 'controlled' and cowed can make progress, is to argue in favor of fascism (I don't keep using that word lightly) and is monstrous.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    You think you are not insulting people who do not agree with you? You just called us all monstrous. This is the kind of insults that I was referring to above. And the way you phrase it twists our intent anyway.
    I am simply pointing out the implications of your position. I did not say that you were monstrous, only that the implication (that the Chinese people need to be controlled because they are not 'ready' to be free) is. I mean nothing personal at all.

    The argument is no different than the one that the Boers made in South Africa during the apartheid years, or for that matter, that slaveholders used to make - we will give these people freedom and equality - someday - they just aren't ready, yet.

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:

    The argument is no different than the one that the Boers made in South Africa during the apartheid years, or for that matter, that slaveholders used to make - we will give these people freedom and equality - someday - they just aren't ready, yet.
    The Boers were pretty awful people, I agree. But then I look at South Africa today (went there a few years back, it was SCARY) ... and you have to wonder!

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses:
    One question though, what if the govt keeps almost every thing as it is, but, doesn't commit any more atrocities against their own populace? Do you think it'd still be acceptable? I am sure, there would still be quite a few people with revolutionary ideas going even then.
    Thanks for the response. I don't think my view has changed during the course of the debate (not to say that I wouldn't be flexible in that regard, but if you review the posts the initial comments that I responded to were to the effect that i.) it is OK to control the press, and ii.) it is OK to lock up dissidents). Democracy - or rather, representive government - is a good thing, but some other things are even more fundamental (and should eventually result in democractic government anyway).

    Getting to your point, how are we going to know whether the CCP commits atrocities against its people, when it controls the press and the courts? The fact is, the CCP commits atrocities every day. Try practicing falun gong in China sometime.

    You don't like India's press, but let's face it, it is much better to have "a hundred schools of thought contend" even if the schools represent different and sometimes corrupt interest groups, than to have one group of people, who only have their own interests at heart, dispense the information they see fit to dispense.

  6. #96

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    Cricket seems to unite Indians a hell of a lot more than many social policies!


  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:

    You don't like India's press, but let's face it, it is much better to have "a hundred schools of thought contend" even if the schools represent different and sometimes corrupt interest groups, than to have one group of people, who only have their own interests at heart, dispense the information they see fit to dispense.
    Fair enough. But, my question was based on an assumption that the govt doesn't commit any atrocities, then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loz_2:
    Cricket seems to unite Indians a hell of a lot more than many social policies!
    Yes, that's seems to be true.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    i.) it is OK to control the press, and ii.) it is OK to lock up dissidents). Democracy - or rather, representive government - is a good thing, but some other things are even more fundamental (and should eventually result in democractic government anyway).
    RE i) Control the Press - this is not really what I was saying. "Control" is too strong a word. I would certainly loosen the press from where it is now, but would not go as far as the "free press" in other countries. I see the "free press" operating in the Philippines, for example, and I struggle to see that it does anything other than ferment arguments and get paid for articles ! (Much as the indian discussions above).

    Sometimes, I think our "free press" in the west does us no services. Look at the impact of the Koran burning, for example. Perhaps if that had not been so widely reported, the atrocities it sparked in Afghanistan would not have happened. I look at the reporting of the Japan earthquake too, and I see sensationalism and fear mongering (and good reporting too, obviously) - again - some of the fear mongering was probably unhelpful. So I struggle to see even in our society that a truely free press is a great idea, so can see that in a place like China it would be worse.

    Perhaps what would be good would be a code of practise for the press, where they can report on anything factually, but should not hype up events. So riots and demonstrations should be reported but not excessively so.

    Would that be enough for you, for now?

  9. #99

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    This still going? So much heat between the two arguments of (i) it should change now and (ii) it should change but slowly. Imagine if there was someone on here actually arguing that it should stay as it is.

    Brit, your contributions to this thread have been disgraceful and it is about time you grew up.

    Paenma, you're still alive! I was missing you.


  10. #100

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    Freetrader: "You tell me, Hull, who is more of a friend of the Chinese - those who believe that the Chinese deserve to be treated with dignity, or those or don't? There is only one possible answer, as far as I'm concerned."

    Based on how you described how you treat your staff while making $4 million a year is an example of treating Chinese with dignity? If they speak up and complain about working 24/7 for lousy wages you fire them. At least you do make a decent point now and again vs just attack personally.

    My sense if that you are naive or too US centric when it comes to China - not more knowledgeable as you claim to be. It is you FT who doesn't seem to grasp the complexity of things.

    To improve China is to improve the rule the law and also eliminate corruption. The latter is tough but must be done.

    Like the USA is the model for all things good and the PRC the model for all things evil:

    C.I.A. Data Show 14-Year Project On Controlling Human Behavior; Data From C.I.A. Show Project on Human Behavior By NICHOLAS M. HORROCK Special to The New York Times ();
    July 21, 1977

    WikiLeaks cables recount how U.S. pressured allies
    2001-03-06, San Francisco Chronicle

    They have received little attention in the United States, but a set of WikiLeaks disclosures of confidential documents has caused an uproar in Europe by showing that U.S. officials pressured Germany and Spain to derail criminal investigations of Americans.

    More than 2,500 State Department cables ... include accounts of three cases that shed new light on U.S. responses to allegations of wrongdoing: -- The case of Khaled el-Masri, a German citizen seized in Macedonia in 2003 by officers who mistook him for an al Qaeda agent with a similar name. He said they turned him over to U.S. authorities, who flew him in shackles, a blindfold and a diaper to a prison in Afghanistan, where they beat him, injected him with drugs and interrogated him. The CIA analyst who advocated el-Masri's abduction and argued against releasing him even after colleagues reported the mistaken identity has been promoted to run the agency's al Qaeda unit and regularly briefs CIA Director Leon Panetta.

    -- The case of four Spanish residents who said they were [B]tortured by U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay before being released without charges. [/B]--

    The case of Jose Couso, a Spanish cameraman who was one of two journalists killed in April 2003 by a U.S. artillery shell at a hotel in Baghdad. A U.S. military investigation concluded that troops were responding to reports of rocket attacks from the building, but journalists on the scene have said the hotel was a well-known media headquarters and was not the source of any hostile fire. A May 2007 WikiLeaks cable quoted then-U.S. Ambassador Eduardo Aguirre as saying that "behind the scenes we have fought tooth and nail to make the charges disappear." The Obama administration has refused to discuss the content of the State Department documents or of previous WikiLeaks disclosures about Iraq and Afghanistan.


    State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley resigns after flap over his WikiLeaks remarks
    2011-03-13, Chicago Tribune/Associated Press

    Crowley's comments about the conditions for Army Pfc. Bradley Manning at a Marine Corps brig in Quantico, Va., reverberated quickly. Manning is being held in solitary confinement for all but an hour every day, and is stripped naked each night and given a suicide-proof smock to wear to bed.


    Rights Are Curtailed for Terror Suspects
    2011-03-24, Wall Street Journal

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    (Miranda rights to an attorney...right to remain silent...anything you say... court.)

    Obama creates indefinite detention system for prisoners at Guantanamo Bay
    2011-03-08, Washington Post

    "It is virtually impossible to imagine how one closes Guantanamo in light of this executive order," said Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union. "In a little over two years, the Obama administration has done a complete about-face." Recent legislation now makes it extremely difficult to transfer any detainee out of Guantanamo Bay even if he is believed to be no threat.

    Sen. Graham voices support for restrictions on free speech
    April 4, 2011
    Source: Midlands Connect

    Senator Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) is drawing national attention stemming from controversial comments he made this weekend seemingly calling on Congress to impose limits on free speech.

    Graham said on CBS Face the Nation Sunday that the need to protect U.S. servicemembers overseas may justify limiting of political speech at home.

    "I wish we could find some way to hold people accountable," said Graham. "Free speech is a great idea, but we're in a war. During World War II you had limits on what you could do if it inspired the enemy."

    Graham's comments follow the burning of a Quran by Florida pastor Terry Jones, who said he organized the burning to "stir the pot." The burning of the Islam holy book sparked rioting in Afghanistan, where at least seven people had been killed over the weekend as protests erupted again Monday for the fourth straight day.

    Graham's comments about limiting free speech to discourage violent protests were quickly picked up by multiple national media outlets including Politico, Mediaite and The Atlantic.

    What do you think about Senator Graham's comments? Is limiting free expression sometimes justified to protest U.S. troops overseas, or is the Senator's oath to preserve and protect the Constitution more important?


    US Army 'kill team' in Afghanistan posed for photos of murdered civilians
    2011-03-21, The Guardian

    Indiana prosecutor resigns for encouraging fake attack on Wisconsin governor
    2011-03-25, CBS News

    Last month, another Indiana official -- Deputy Attorney General Jeff Cox - lost his job for calling on law enforcement to "use live ammunition" on Wisconsin protesters.

    Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico
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    The Michigan Monarchy Legislates Financial Martial Law -- Nation Yawns
    2011-03-18, Forbes

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    Audit: Pentagon overpaid oilman by up to $200 million
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    The audit by the Defense Department’s inspector general ... estimated that the department paid the oilman “$160 [million] to $204 million more for fuel than could be supported by price or cost analysis.” The study also reported that the three contracts were awarded under conditions that effectively eliminated the other bidders.


    IRS: 400 richest averaged $345M in '07 income, 16% tax rate
    2010-02-18, USA Today


    The [IRS] reports that the nation's 400 highest-earning households reported an average income of $345 million in 2007 — up 31% from 2006 — and that their average tax bill fell to a 15-year low. Bloomberg writes that the elite 400's average income more than doubled that year from $131.1 million in 2001, the year Congress adopted tax cuts urged by then-President George W. Bush. Each household in the top 400 of earners paid an average tax rate of 16.6 percent, the lowest since the agency began tracking the data in 1992.

    Where'd the Bailout Money Go? Shhhh, It's a Secret
    2008-12-22, Fox News/Associated Press

    CIA and DOD Human Subjects Research Scandals
    2007-00-00, U.S. Department of Energy Website

    "In December 1974, the New York Times reported that the CIA had conducted illegal domestic activities, including experiments on U.S. citizens...."

    The War On Waste
    2002-01-29, CBS News

    Pentagon ... while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends. "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted. $2.3 trillion—that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America. A former Marine turned whistle-blower is risking his job by speaking out ... about the millions he noticed were missing from one defense agency's balance sheets. Jim Minnery, Defense Finance and Accounting Service ... tried to follow the money trail, even crisscrossing the country looking for records. "The director looked at me and said 'Why do you care about this stuff?' It took me aback. My supervisor asking me why I care about doing a good job," said Minnery. He was reassigned and says officials then covered up the problem.


    G.E.’s Strategies Let It Avoid Taxes Altogether
    2011-03-25, New York Times

    Fed to release bank loan data after Supreme Court rejects appeal
    2011-03-21, Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg News

    The order marks the first time a court has forced the Fed to reveal the names of banks that borrowed from its oldest lending program, the 98-year-old discount window. "I can't recall that the Fed was ever sued and forced to release information" in its 98-year history, said Allan H. Meltzer, the author of three books on the U.S central bank and a professor at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh.

    Parents Lose High Court Appeal in Vaccine Case
    2011-02-22, U.S. News & World Report/Associated Press

    The Supreme Court closed the courthouse door ... to parents who want to sue drug makers over claims their children developed autism and other serious health problems from vaccines.

    Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the court, said Congress set up a special vaccine court in 1986 to ... create a system that spares the drug companies the costs of defending against parents' lawsuits. Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor dissented.

    Last edited by Football16; 12-04-2011 at 02:35 PM.

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