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Bin Laden Found Dead?

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  1. #341

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Agree. I too am not surprised about the evolving story. In fact, I remember on Monday when the news was breaking thinking that if I were POTUS, I would reveal as little as possible, but "the fog of war" takes some time to dissipate. All that said, this was so high profile and so many were involved that there will eventually be plenty of information in the public domain to haggle over.
    "Fog of war" my arse! More like fog in your brain!

    So highly trained Navy seals were confused as to whether an old unarmed geriatic was putting on his underpants or lauching his nuclear megaton bomb aka Dr.No style?

    I wouldn't be suprised if they burst in and simply found OBL shagging his wives. Remember the Jessica Lynch story where she with her nail file singlehandely fought off hundreds or perhaps thousands of marauding Iraqis armed to the teeth all ready to ravage her? I suppose that was Fog of war....

    Someone is telling porkies and blaming it on the "Fog of war" .... a new euphermism for Lying. Funny you should use this term so soon after US officials came out with it and then you do your Bill and Ben act.
    Last edited by HKITperson; 07-05-2011 at 07:13 AM.

  2. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by paenme:
    If Obama actually said that, he would not come across very "presidential", would him?

    More important to clarify is that Obama is correct when he said "justice is served". Here are the various definitions of the word "justice", it certainly is not limited to just in the legal sense:

    1. The quality of being just; fairness.
    2. a. The principle of moral rightness; equity. b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
    3. a. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law. b. Law The administration and procedure of law.
    4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason: The overcharged customer was angry, and with justice.
    5. a. A judge. b. A justice of the peace.

    Unless you are morally on the other side of the fence, justice is served in this case.
    So is murder ever moral?

  3. #343

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    A trial for the US is a huge problem. Here is a country that does not subscribe to the International Criminal Court and they have agreements with over 100 nations that they will not turn an American over to them for trial so how can they capture Bin Laden and turn him over to the ICC? That defies all logic and common sense.

    They will not conduct trials on their soil now for those they captured and have held without charge and without the basic rights they'd give a common bank robber so they will proceed by military tribunal alone. That is much like the police capturing the crooks and being judge and jury of the accused. Hardly the ear marks of justice and fair trials.

    The charges against Bin Laden would have to be conspiracy charges - very, very hard to prove without corroboration and evidence of him directing 911 etc to happen, etc and not just the the damning video tapes alleged to have been Bin Laden. This evidence would meet the tests of a US military tribunal but might not make if it went through a US criminal trial and all the way to their Supreme Court where there are lots of loop holes. Why the US would not agree to the ICC is incomprehensible and for Bin Laden that would have been the place to go.

    Summation: If you want him, shoot him and get it over. Lots of things in international relations are not legal but are done and eventually the folks get over it. This too shall pass.
    Agree with everything except the final point "This too shall pass". We could equally say to the families of 9/11 victims "This too shall pass"
    How many more actions will warrant this "This too shall pass". It is like a carte de blanche for state sanctioned murder.
    bryant.english likes this.

  4. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    So is murder ever moral?
    It depends on whether murder conflicts with morality in the particular circumstances. Refer to my scenarios earlier. If Neighbor A or B indeed killed the drunken dad in order to save the children, then the "murder" is well justified and they should be acquitted in my opinion. In this case moraltiy prevails even if the action may be illegal.

    I think many of you are confusing legality with moraltiy, what is legal is not necessarily always moral and vice versa. If you are Chinese you probably know that the Chinese wisdom evaluates all situations against the standards of 合情, 合理, 合法, i.e. fair, reasonable and lawful. Note that legality is only part of the consideration. Determine morality strictly under legality is what gets us to lose sight of the complete picture which seems to be the problem with you and a few others...

    Let me ask you something - The outcome of OJ's case is legal, but is it moral? Do you feel "justice is served" in that case?
    Last edited by paenme; 07-05-2011 at 01:12 PM.

  5. #345

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Agree with everything except the final point "This too shall pass". We could equally say to the families of 9/11 victims "This too shall pass"
    How many more actions will warrant this "This too shall pass". It is like a carte de blanche for state sanctioned murder.
    Yes, and someday we hopefully will no longer be subject HKIT's irrelevant and nonsensical comments. That, too, shall pass.

  6. #346

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Yes, and someday we hopefully will no longer be subject HKIT's irrelevant and nonsensical comments. That, too, shall pass.
    the first lines are always funny though, no?
    Freetrader and Gatts like this.

  7. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by paenme:
    It depends on whether murder conflicts with morality in the particular circumstances. Refer to my scenarios earlier. If Neighbors A or B indeed killed the drunken dad in order to save the children, then the "murder" is well justified and they should be acquitted in my opinion. In this case moraltiy prevails even if the action may be illegal.
    But your scenario doesn't have anything in common with this situation and who needs to refer to you for moral lessons anyway? Who are you supposed to be? Dumb..

  8. #348

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    Quote Originally Posted by paenme:
    Skyhook
    A few questions for you:

    - Where do you think that little nice European country that you plan to resettle to would be today were it not for the US and its involvement overseas? I assume you or your children are not blond haired, blue eyed Christians which means without the US you probably wouldn't even be alive today?

    - Do you think US should not have been involved in WWII or Kosovo to save the European axxes? Do you think the US should just spend their precious lives and resources on you entirely at their own costs and not implement measures to prevent future problems or ensure that it retains that power in case you are in trouble again next time?

    - Do you believe that the world will be a much better and safer place without the US? What about Russia or China? Do you believe the world will be a better or worse place for ambitious mass-murdering dictators that we know will be more to come in future?

    Do agree with you on the waste issue, the US and the rest of the developed world should do more to reduce energy consumption.
    If the first paragraph refers to WWII and the overthrow of Hitler I think you will find Russia, Britain and its Commonwealth, plus the resistance fighters of the occupied countries played just a little part. We did hold out for a couple of years you know until Japan bombed the USA into the war. It might have taken longer but the Nazi regime would have collapsed anyway.

  9. #349

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    Quote Originally Posted by paenme:
    It depends on whether murder conflicts with morality in the particular circumstances. Refer to my scenarios earlier. If Neighbors A or B indeed killed the drunken dad in order to save the children, then the "murder" is well justified and they should be acquitted in my opinion. In this case moraltiy prevails even if the action may be illegal.
    One of my favorite movies is the 1996 John Sayle's film, Lone Star, about a small town in Texas. It reminds me of this discussion because the central issue of the film is the conflict between "the law" and "justice" and that sometimes you have to opt for the latter.

    Of course - I don't think we have to resort to that here, because as far as I am aware, Bin Laden's killing was competely legal...but assuming it weren't, it would be another interesting discussion.
    Last edited by Freetrader; 07-05-2011 at 01:19 PM.

  10. #350

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    I believe that: while it is right to question the legality/morality around the US action against Osama, there are other equally-suspect US actions which are ongoing: capital punishment of the mentally ill, joy-killings in Middle East, over-imprisonment of blacks, confused immigration policies, etc.

    So... I'm not going to spend much time debating this particular event; there are others which deserve attention and I'm not offended that Osama has been killed and that some questions remain unanswered.

    Yes, I'm American.


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