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Soldier beheaded in Woolwich, UK. Sickening.

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  1. #391

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    That's your input?

  2. #392

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    I was just as scared.

    What calmed me down was when I went back to your past posts and suddenly they weren't so scary anymore.
    virago likes this.

  3. #393

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    More evil is done in the name of righteousness than any other way.

    Sent from somewhere....
    Last edited by virago; 02-06-2013 at 08:32 PM.
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  4. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by usehername:
    Historian - they won't be a majority. The majority will be 'non muslims', so the chances of a minority religious group getting any new laws passed through a majority non-muslim parliment are slim. Particularly if they go against the wishes of the majority non-muslim population.

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using GeoClicks Mobile
    Perhaps. Perhaps not. Only time will tell. Even if Muslims are not a majority at the national level they can be a majority at a local level. History has shown that when groups immigrate to another country they tend to find people who are from the same area, ethnic group, religion, etc. as them. Over time stores are forced to change what they sell, or how they do business, in order to meet the new demand (and to stay in business with these new customers).

    Once immigrates figure out how their new adopted country works they can organize and run for local offices and change laws that will suit them. Admittedly someone who is elected to be a leader of a community of 100 people isn't going to have the same type of impact as someone who is elected as a leader of a city with 1 million people. But you have to start someplace.

  5. #395

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lootoo:
    Most good atheists were once indoctrinated into religion; perhaps that is actually a prerequisite?

    I'm an optimist: I don't care what children are told to believe, so long as they learn how to think they should be fine.
    Personally, I think we should completely ban religion around children until they are about, say 11 or 12, and then let them decide for themselves.

    I can see where INXS is coming from. I think most of his posts do more harm than good, but he does actually make some relevant points!

    Islam is NOT a race and being anti-islamic is NOT racist. That's just daft to say that it is.

    Pretty much all religions DO involve believing some fairytales but I don't think you need to believe them all to still consider yourself religious.

    For example, I had a friend at University who was strongly Catholic. He was also studying science. I asked him once how he squared beliefs in evolution with the Bible and his answer was pretty pragmatic - revolving around the Bible being a metaphor not a literal reading. I think you can be religious without believing in every fairytale and so you can get very rational thinkers who are also religious. I have no problem with any of them. Anyone who tries to convert me, however, stops being a friend pretty fast!

    As for Islam being more to blame for terrorism than any other religion ... that does seem rather far fetched when you look at what atrocities have been done in the name of the Holy Roman Empire over the years. It does seem, however, that Christians seem, on balance, to have evolved a little faster than Islam. Mostly though I suspect if the US was invading and bombing Sikh or Bhuddist or whatever other religion countries they would all start being anti-USA too ..... it's much more to do with territory than religion in the end. But religion makes for a great recruiting tool - a few charismatic preachers and off you go.

  6. #396

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    historian do you have any idea what you're talking about?

    Immigrants often live together, yes. They form communities and services and shops provide for their needs *in that community*. You can't argue that they are going to group together to elect local leaders AND simultaneously be spread out across the country electing enough local leaders all over the place to influence national policy.

    The uk muslim population makes up just under 5% of the population. Are 5% of mps muslim? No. Not even close. 8 people in fact. What's the fastest growing party in the uk? 'the muslim party'? No. UKIP, the uk independence - anti immigration party.

    Muslims will be controlling uk politics? Don't make me laugh.


    Sent from my GT-I9100 using GeoClicks Mobile

    Last edited by usehername; 03-06-2013 at 08:11 AM.

  7. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by usehername:
    historian do you have any idea what you're talking about?

    Immigrants often live together, yes. They form communities and services and shops provide for their needs *in that community*. You can't argue that they are going to group together to elect local leaders AND simultaneously be spread out across the country electing enough local leaders all over the place to influence national policy.

    The uk muslim population makes up just under 5% of the population. Are 5% of mps muslim? No. Not even close. 8 people in fact. What's the fastest growing party in the uk? 'the muslim party'? No. UKIP, the uk independence - anti immigration party.

    Muslims will be controlling uk politics? Don't make me laugh.


    Sent from my GT-I9100 using GeoClicks Mobile
    We will see who is right in about 20 years or so.

  8. #398

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Bear also in mind that we have tried to be accommodating, our collective welfare expenditure in the EU on the Islamic community = Billions of Euro's each year, to such an extent that it has fragmented our own social stability. The results of decades of failed immigration policy is now rearing its ugly head, we just had to admit our mistake..
    I have quite literally no idea what you're talking about. Billions of Euros on specifically funding Islamic communities? Wow. Please elaborate.

    I think you might be talking about asylum seekers. This is the crux of what 'parties' like the BNP like to champion. You too?

    Muslims tend to be from non EU-member state countries. This means that EU member states have no obligation to provide said muslim with welfare benefits other than in the case of successful asylum applications.

    As for the number of asylum applications (note - not admissions) in any one year, in the UK, asylum applications (excluding dependents) rose from 4,256 in 1987 to a peak of 84,130 in 2002, and then declined to 19,865 in 2011. These people are entitled to temporary welfare until their applications are approved or rejected.

    Your idea of a muslim invasion doesn't really stack up. You need to get real.

    Also, your idea of "we" in the context of "we have been accommodating" is the real issue here. The biggest infestation in the UK is "indigenous" Brits, second and third generation unemployed, who feel an entitlement to obtaining very generous welfare benefits for no good reason. This is the biggest concern for the UK and this is what has crippled our nation - not a minority of Muslims who don't worship the same gods as you (and in this context, it could mean going to the pub to spend your dole money instead of feeding your kids).

    Maybe you've been out of the UK too long and don't know what the real problems are. I don't know.

  9. #399

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruntfuttock:
    @iliketurtles,

    I'll just throw in that I'm with INXS and Skyhook on the word "racism", and I will continue to use it in its traditional sense. I think it is absolutely wrong that the religious folk are being allowed to expand the meaning of the word to become, more or less, "negative feelings towards anyone based on who they are, what they believe or what they do".

    There's a huge difference between racism (and for that matter sexism) and denigrating someone for their religious beliefs and actions that they undertake as a result.

    Race and sex (and, in the view of most people, sexuality) are matters of fact beyond the control of the individual. They are fundamentally different from religion or any other behaviour or belief which is purely a matter of personal choice.

    Denigrating someone on the grounds solely of race (or sex, or sexuality, or inherent disability for that matter) is something that I think the vast majority of educated people can agree is wrong.

    But speaking out against someone for holding views which I believe to be nonsensical and behaving in a way which I regard to be wrong (for example, in the mutilation of male children) is a fundamental part of the progress of society and it is absolutely wrong that people who hold certain types of views should be able to hold them legally sacrosanct.

    By your definition I am, and will continue to be, racist. But by the "proper" and traditional definition I absolutely am not.
    I note that you didn't actually define "race" other than to say that it categorically excluded religion. Your view is outdated and shows, perhaps, your reluctance to embrace this new world of ours.

    I assume by "matters of fact" you mean "colour of skin" or "where I was born". You then have problems with mass migration, different colours interbreeding. It must make you very hot under the collar. It's a very narrow view.

    Anyway, am I saying "if you criticise Islam, you are racist"? No.

    Am I saying "if you suggest that all Muslims carry knives and bombs and are scary to look at" is racist? Yes.

    You have generally been careful not to cross the line into the second example. Unfortunately, your friend INXS falls into the second category and tars you and TigerSun with the same brush.

    You need to be careful though. Whether or not one accepts that "proper" view of racism includes matters of religion, it does not give them the ability to be a Grade A jackass.

  10. #400

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    I completely agree with this. I think of all of the vocal atheists here, you and I have the most common ground.

    I get the feeling that Islam has become more extreme in the last few decades and it fascinates and concerns me in equal portions. I don't think it is a problem borne exclusively in the religion itself (I think fundamentally, it is similar to the other mainstream religions) but I think that a dangerous mix of western meddling in the middle-east and observant religious fanatics with good timing taking advantage of certain situations in a country's history - I'm thinking Iran, Israel, Egypt, Iraq etc. The list goes on.

    People like Skyhook love to say more and more extremist statements like "get them out of our country!" but I think the same applies probably even more forcefully in Afghanistan, Iraq and their neighbours. I don't think anyone can credibly say the west's intervention did more good than damage. For us westerners to only think about our own country is brainless.

    Two sets of cultures are becoming entrenched in more and more extremism. More tolerance and more understanding is required. Not the opposite.

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